Jason Burke: 'The Problem Is Not Islam But A Fusion Of The Secular And The Religious'

Taliban

First Posted: 09/09/11 21:37 Updated: 09/11/11 10:12

"I watched 9/11 unfold in the office of The Observer," says Jason Burke, one of the UK's foremost experts on Al-Qaeda and currently South Asia correspondent for The Guardian.

"I was just back from Algeria," he says. "I stood in front of the TV watching the first tower burning, then watched the second plane go in. I turned to the deputy editor and said 'that's Bin Laden'. He told me to get a satellite phone and some money and get to the airport."

That's exactly what the he did, spending the next decade writing from the front line of the post-9/11 conflicts, including two critically lauded books, Al-Qaeda: The True Story of Radical Islam and On the Road to Kandahar: Travels through Conflict in the Islamic World.

The 41-year-old's latest tome, The 9/11 Wars, looks back at the violence of the past decade, offering an insight into the conflict from the perspective of the local and the regional. As he puts it: "seeing things for myself".

It's an understanding on the conflict built from meeting hundreds if not thousands of participants across the globe.

"Repeatedly in these encounters, whether it was failed suicide bombers, Iraqi militants or western intelligent specialists, I kept having difficulty reconciling the individual with the general, and particularly the local with the global," says Burke, sitting at a coffee table in central London.

The author, originally from North London and now based in New Delhi, admits that tackling ten years, particularly a decade so scarred by violence, was a difficult task. The book's arc progresses through the aftermath of 9/11; the escalation of violence in Afghanistan, Iraq and Europe; and the years post the European attacks, which saw a gradual change in western policy.

"The progression in terms of the understanding of Al-Qaeda over the last ten years has been absolutely phenomenal," he points out. "And central to that greater understanding has been the disaggregation of Al-Qaeda from being the global organisation with tentacles everywhere, led by a single figure, to being something far more diverse with a whole variety of local manifestations."

Within days of the Twin Towers collapsing, Al-Qaeda had been morphed in the public consciousness into an all-encompassing terror network, a religious SPECTRE with bin Laden orchestrating the chaos from his Tora Bora redoubt.

"That global vision has slowly been broken down," says Burke, arguing that by viewing Al-Qaeda as a local phenomenon, the West was able to refine its understanding and apply counterterrorism measures that were far more bespoke.

"Much of the thinking within the counterterrorist community is now about the individual, it's about the particular circumstances or courses of events that takes a person into radicalism or radical violence. We're no longer talking about global profiling. What we are talking about is real granularity – hierarchies, flat networks and the mechanics of individuals."

While reporting abroad Burke saw that it wasn't the global narratives that were determining events, but local factors - communities, families, brothers…

"Most terrorist or militant attacks used local materials, perpertrated by local people operating only a couple of hours travel from their homes. Yes, 9/11. Yes, a couple of other major international events. But 99 per cent of the violence is rooted in communities, often intra-community."

Burke sips his water before launching into a dissection of the causes of the conflict:

"Let's look at what this conflict is really about. Is it about Islam versus West? Is it about good versus evil? Is it about these meta-narratives that ideologically driven thinkers on all the sides were trying to impose? Or is it about people and their reactions to certain contexts and certain situations?"

I ask why the West, its commentators and its governments (Samuel Huntington's 'The Clash Of Civilisations' became required reading post 9/11) were so eager to bolt a grand narrative onto the conflict.

"I think it's a hangover from the Cold War," he says, "but also after a massive shock you seek simple answers because a complicated answer is not particularly morally or intellectually satisfying."

The West played along with Al-Qaeda's framing, a narrative staggering in its lack of sophistication.

"There was a very strong influence from the evangelical Christianity in the States, which fed into that framing," Burke adds.

The reasons underpinning America's eagerness to engage post 9/11 remains an open debate, but the US didn't act alone in Afghanistan and Iraq. Britain was in lock step and the evangelical argument doesn’t carry across the Atlantic.

"No, but Blair brought liberal humanitarian interventionism to the equation, which looking back seems just as dated."

In regards to Afghanistan, Burke argues that Western strategy has made a couple of distinct shifts, from "ridding the world of terrorist training camps"; a move the author says was "long overdue", to creating "a liberal pluralist democracy with a free market system". Finally, around 2006, Western doctrine decided that it was to be "none of the above".

The author also witnessed what he calls a "similar ratcheting down of expectations and of objectives" in Iraq. In both countries, by 2006, the early idealism was on its way out and by 2008, following Obama's election, it had completely gone... so much so that the Taliban "are now being rapidly rehabilitated as partners for peace".

I suggest that the turning point for Afghanistan may have been the 2009 election, which saw incumbent Hamid Karzai returned amid strong accusations of electoral fraud.

"Earlier," insists Burke, "though a lot was pegged on that election. By 2009 a lot of people thought the core problem in Afghanistan was the government’s legitimacy."

Karzai was first elected in 2004 with around 55 per cent of the vote. However his subsequent term was characterised by charges of corruption and a growing disquiet about civilian casualties. By the end of the term, he was deeply unpopular.

"The Americans and the British thought if they could get a legitimate government in Kabul, that legitimacy would trickle down. What actually happened was a total catastrophe. Karzai screwed things up horribly."

"Following the election, the West was forced to do a quick re-messaging. The line was now 'this is what happens in Afghanistan, this is still the best we've got, now we're moving forward with our Afghan partners'.

Moving forward, for the West, meant out of the door as quickly as possible. "This is pretty much where we are now," he adds. "So the election was key, but it came against a backdrop of on going change."

Within the book, Burke characterises the problem of extremism as "a complex fusion of the secular and the religious that's extremely difficult to counter." It's an unusual charge, as secularism is often perceived to be one of the principle targets of the extremists.

"Violent Islamist rhetoric was influenced by the revolutionary ideologies of the 20th Century," he says, citing the impact of Nazism and revolutionary communism on the founders of the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic thinkers.

They also share similar structures," he says. "What does radical Islam do? It takes a situation, it explains what's gone wrong and it gives you a programme for a solution. You don’t really need to think. It gives you all the answers, just like revolutionary communism or Marxism."

"What bin Laden did was to fuse very contemporary concerns - oil, Israel, Palestine, human rights - with a revolutionary Islamic violent methodology, along with a lot of mythical references, which are enormously potent in terms of identity baggage. He talked about the fall of Baghdad to the Mongols, and he talked about the crusades. These are all fantastic push button issues."

"Terrorism is not about massive organisations," he continues apace, "and it's not about psychopaths. It's also not about starving people or revolution. It's about pairs or small groups of people egging each other on. It's a social activity like anything else. Yes – it's abhorrent and morally unjustifiable, but it's not that dissimilar to robbing a bank."

"People get sucked into it. If you look at the interrogations of British militants, the leaders of the groups were using the same type of arguments criminals use: 'If we go down you're coming down with us' and 'if you go to the cops, we're all going to go down'. It's like the mafia... not in terms of mailing body parts, but a shared understanding of how things work."

The author is also quick to dismiss a link between poverty and terrorism. "We've seen violence from very poor people, we've seen violence from extremely rich people and lots in between."

Two chapters are devoted to what in retrospect appears to be the nadir of the decade, the years 2005 and 2006. Following the Madrid bombings (2004), the murder of Theo Van Gogh (2004), the London bombings (2005), the riots in Paris (2005), the failed transatlantic bomb plot (2006) and the Danish cartoon affair (2005), he concedes that, at the time, Europe looked like it was on the precipice. However, reporting on the unrest in Paris, Burke was confronted with a phenomenon far removed from militant Islam.

"In three weeks I didn't hear a single religious slogan, or see any religious graffiti. There was simply no religious element on the ground."

"The people who were rioting were largely non-Muslim. The main slogan of the rioters was that hardy perennial of urban violence, 'fuck the police'."

Yet at the time, the notion of Europe falling to a Muslim hoard gained ground on the right in the US, while Oriana Fallaci's book 'The Force Of Reason' had their European counterparts in a similar flap.

"It was all hysterically overblown," says Burke. "There was no massive radicalisation of European Muslims. That is important, as Al-Qaeda was unable to recruit. The first stage of their plan was the spectacular propaganda attack; the second stage was the mass roll out of that violence."

Around that time Al-Qaeda started to lose support in Muslim countries, especially when violence was being perpetrated on Muslim soil.

"The best example is the 2005 bombing of the hotels in Amman," he says. "Prior to the bombings, approval ratings in Muslim countries for Bin Laden, Musab al-Zarqawi and suicide bombing was up around 60-80 per cent. Immediately after the bombings, that went down to 15-20 per cent. The Al-Qaeda strategy... not only failed to gain new recruits, but was undermining its own strategic aim with every step it took forward."

Al-Qaeda began to face similar problems in Iraq. In the west of the country, the Sunnis ended up aligned to the US, after Al-Qaeda started appropriating "the rackets, which fed the power of the local sheiks."

Which brings Burke back to his original thesis, that of the local versus the global:

"The Al-Qaeda ideology and package is disrespectful of local differences. In the end most people just have their communities - there's no global narrative. They're just getting on with their daily life - individuals, families... The bloke who lives down the road, asking whether he can get water or not, whether he's proud of being who he feels he is - an Iraqi, an Arab, a Sunni, a Muslim, a father, a tribal chief or whoever. These are the drivers behind those critical decisions as to whom he is fighting."

I ask if he think another major attack, one on the scale of 9/11, is likely.

"There might be another attack, but there might not be," he says. "That uncertainty is what the whole security industry gravy train runs on."

The author points to another shift in thinking: "These days, the US seems less preoccupied with how to protect itself against a terrorist attack and more concerned with how to be resilient when a terrorist attack occurs."

Speaking to veteran journalist Bob Woodward in 2010, President Obama said:

"We can absorb a terrorist attack... we'll do everything we can to prevent it, but even a 9/11, even the biggest attack ever... we absorbed it and we are stronger."

"It was an extraordinary statement," says Burke. "He's right, of course. The US could absorb four or five. It would have its impact but one of the most astonishing things about the American economy, with its massive deficit and all its structural problems, is that over the past ten years it has managed to pay for two trillion dollar wars."

"You have to remember that the insurance costs for Hurricane Katrina and the recent Japanese Tsunami are many, many times greater than those of 9/11. That's the power of terrorism... to terrorise is to make people fear something disproportionately."

I start to ask the author about more recent events... "bin Laden dying offers a sense of narrative closure," he says, interrupting. "It is easy to be mistaken about these things... but there is a sense that what's happening with the Arab Spring is the start of something different, a new cycle."

It's an optimistic tone on which to end, but not before Burke adds one last note of caution:

"Watch out for social conservatism. Western portrayals of the Middle East and places like Pakistan can be very misrepresentative. Western journalists, myself included, very often allow the educated, elite English speaking voices to dominate, giving the impression that they're representative of much of their society."

"So you end up with a view of a country made up of either extremists or moderates. The majority middle ground doesn't get heard. And that majority middle ground is often socially conservative, religiously conservative, deeply anti-American and deeply anti-Western. I think it is going to be very interesting to watch in the coming years."

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"I watched 9/11 unfold in the office of The Observer," says Jason Burke, one of the UK's foremost experts on Al-Qaeda and currently South Asia correspondent for The Guardian. "I was just back from...
"I watched 9/11 unfold in the office of The Observer," says Jason Burke, one of the UK's foremost experts on Al-Qaeda and currently South Asia correspondent for The Guardian. "I was just back from...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Dish Soap
The natural laws are impartial and unbreakable.
08:56 on 12/09/2011
I see a more unstable world every day. The energy and resources hungry countries are promoting chaos with the intention of sticking their hands in the cookie jar. Ignorance just begun to burn the fuse of a massive conflict. No country will be in the position of another big war, no one will recover from such war.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Dish Soap
The natural laws are impartial and unbreakable.
08:49 on 12/09/2011
The UN is unleashing a big monster by helping the eradication of some of the dictators. This means more radical factions acting on their own, a more unstable Africa and Middle East with large social groups with no norm or knowledge of peaceful behavior. The nature of most of these social groups is fanatical and impulsive at the mercy of clever radical leaders who will gather and organize them for personal gain.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Meldy1
Nurse&Pianist,but I don't have to work!
16:18 on 11/09/2011
Radicalism won't be tolerated in this 21st sane &civilize century.They will be demolish and wipeout!There is no place for radicals in this greatest democracy of the world....freedom is our sacred faith..And we will preserve it and fight for it.Look the Arab world has been clamoring for democracy too....so we won!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
blogger x
Both parties sold us out a long time ago.
22:12 on 11/09/2011
What about the war monger radicals in the U.S. government? Will they go away too?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Dish Soap
The natural laws are impartial and unbreakable.
09:23 on 12/09/2011
How many innocent people we have maimed and killed in the name of freedom.
10:56 on 11/09/2011
"a fusion of the religious and the secular" ? presumably what he means to say is a fusion of religion and politics as secularism is the explicit separation of religion and politics - his current phrasing implies that secularists are to blame for terrorism and theocracy
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Paul Vale
Home Page Editor, Huff Post UK
12:11 on 11/09/2011
The full quote is: 'The problem is not Islam but a complex fusion of the secular and the religious that is extremely difficult to counter'. Page 20, 9/11 Wars.
03:14 on 11/09/2011
As an American citizen. I would like to thank our friends in the UK for their sacrifice.

It's time for peace, bring our troops home.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Tim Haselden
An Enemy of Rupert Murdoch, since 1984.
12:58 on 11/09/2011
Thanks, nice to be appreciated.
00:48 on 11/09/2011
Are we missing the big picture here people? All things considered, they murder twenty Americans, we retaliate and kill 2000, they fight back and kill 200 Americans we in turn kill another 100,000 of them, hmmmmm is this a hidden plot of genocide, no one has considered.
19:18 on 10/09/2011
It is time to end the wars and bring the troops home.

We can not afford the cost in either lives or treasure.
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GeoToronto
Nik Nak Paddy Wak, Still Ridin' Caddy-Laks
16:40 on 10/09/2011
I'd like to see a show of hands on whether the events of 911 should've been pursued criminally (law enforcement/intelligence) or militarily.

I vote is criminally.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
blogger x
Both parties sold us out a long time ago.
22:13 on 11/09/2011
And a REAL investigation of what happened that day.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SueMVetforObama2
With Liberty and justice for all
16:23 on 10/09/2011
Thank you, Canada, for taking our planes on 9//.
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13:40 on 10/09/2011
I`d like to tell the UK readers here that as recently as a few short months ago (maybe a year at most) the Republican party (the right wing) did not want to give medical treatment to the 9/11 first responders ....the emergency workers are suffering from serious health problems and the right wing did not want to give them medical treatment....CITING COST !!!!!!!!! AND CLAIMING IT WAS THEIR OWN FAULT FOR NOT WEARING MASKS (their hypocrisy is stomach churning)
Remember there is no NHS here......mercifully public fury got the decision overturned
18:24 on 10/09/2011
Yes this is their ideologically principled, 'deficit hawk' fiscal conservatism - where was that when planning trillions of dollars in wars, tax cuts for the rich, corporate subsidies and a massively overpriced prescription drug program?
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14:44 on 11/09/2011
Nice spinlefty, but your progressive interpretation doesn't square with the facts
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GracieGiraffe
I look down on other mammals
15:30 on 11/09/2011
Really? Why don't you give us the facts then?
12:44 on 10/09/2011
Afghanistan was a honorable war and if not diverted from may have brought a bridge
of peace between east & west.

Iraq was a different matter...brutal and unnecessary which greatly diminished Britains
influence in the Commonwealth and EU and America's throughout the world.

Both nation's 'master and pet' are still feeling the economic consequencies and may
be a long time in recovery.

Now....was it really worth it people, especially you Brits full of common sense and all.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Lawyer13
retired Lawyer, General and Psychiatric Nurse, wit
10:27 on 10/09/2011
Most people can remember where they were on 9/11, I certainly do, I was on a Virgin Atlantic flight to Florida, and we were turned back to UK mid Atlantic, I thought that there had been an incident in US caused by Bin Larden, how right I was. I also remember returning to Florida 9 dafor American Red Cross and Angel Flights. Our two great countries work together ever since.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Itsbeenalongday
Eliminating poverty is smart business
04:33 on 10/09/2011
I guess one day, people will stop just considering the day by itself and ask why and they may not like the answer.
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13:10 on 10/09/2011
That VERY uncomfortable question is still largely being ignored by most Americans
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14:46 on 11/09/2011
What's the question and, better yet, the answer?

Thanking you in advance
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Jon Jony
21:06 on 10/09/2011
Trying to rationalize cold blooded murder of innocents is stupid... There is no possible reason to justify the behavior of the terrorists that attacked on 911. There is no excuse for what took place on 911.

Extremist Islamic terrorists with fanatical and psychotic ideals are responsible for what took place. (and of course- the majority of Muslims are not like these extremists).
21:45 on 09/09/2011
Personnaly, I take great satisfaction in the fact that Osama Bin Laden is sleeping with the fishes.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Itsbeenalongday
Eliminating poverty is smart business
04:34 on 10/09/2011
So you have been told.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Zilo
Indie--The GOP opposes critical thinking
17:16 on 10/09/2011
You should ask yourself ( as with all things involving our government):

Do we know this for a FACT?
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14:46 on 11/09/2011
Yes, I've seen him