Scottish Independence - Could Wales Be Next To Demand A Vote For Freedom From The English?

Welsh Independence

First Posted: 20/01/2012 08:05 Updated: 20/01/2012 13:10

With no Scotland does the UK become too dominated by the English? Would it trigger a domino effect that would push Wales out of the union?

It was a little-noticed remark. While Alex Salmond’s battle with Westminster over the timing and legality of any referendum on Scottish independence dominated news bulletins, Welsh first minister Carwyn Jones waded in.

And according to the Labour politician, Scottish independence would demand a “fundamental rethink” of Wales’ position in the United Kingdom.

"It certainly couldn't carry on as it is now,” he told journalists. “You can't just take Scotland out and expect the UK to continue as before.

John Osmond, director of the Institute for Welsh affairs, said the remarks were a turning point.

“A unionist turned himself into a federalist. Because he said that if Scotland were to become independent the rest of the UK couldn’t just carry on as it is. There would have to be a renegotiation of the relationships between Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. What he is saying for example is that we couldn’t just carry on with a House of Commons completely dominated by English MPs.”

Jones has since made his unionist credentials clear, telling the BBC "Let's not pretend that it would be a good thing for Wales to become independent.” But what would an independent Scotland really mean for Wales? And is there a similar appetite within the country leave the United Kingdom?

Unsurprisingly for Plaid Cymru, the Welsh nationalist party who only last year firmly outlined their wish for Wales to leave the United Kingdom, Scottish independence could be the breaking point.

“The Scottish independence debate puts the Welsh situation back into the spotlight again. Unionism is in crisis, there's no particularly good reason for keeping it together. Why is it that we're better off in this system than taking decisions for ourselves?” a party insider told Huff Post UK.

They argue that a government across one and a half islands is ineffective and without Scotland, parliament will be even more dominated by the English.

But one problem remains: What the Welsh people want. "People in Wales almost don’t have enough of a chip on their shoulder [about independence],” says one Plaid adviser.

Plaid MP Jonathan Edwards acknowledges polls do not show an appetite for Welsh independence.

“The opinion polls are normally between 10-20%. It's never been a hot topic in Wales as it has been in Scotland. The SNP have pursued it as the raisn d’etat as it were. We've taken a more gradualist approach as a party,” he told Huff Post UK.

“It was only this year we adopted independence as officially the party’s constitutional objective. But I think events in Scotland are focusing minds in Wales... The Welsh government needs to prepare now for the inevitability of Scottish independence.”

Last year’s referendum meant the Welsh Assembly was given powers to make legislation without the approval of Westminster. And the Silk Commission, set up by the UK government, is looking into devolving some more financial powers to Wales.”

Edwards argues the referendum will be seen as a “significant step” on the way to independence.

“The constitutional debate is live and there’s a process whereby it’s being discussed. But what I’m arguing is that events in Scotland will supersede that, so we need to look beyond that.”

So why do Plaid want independence? Edwards denies it’s about hating the English: “I've got a number of very good English friends. I play cricket in the summer. I don't think it's to do with that. I define myself as a Welsh person, the question is as the British state moves forward how is the relationship between nations dealt with...

“It’s got nothing to do with chips on shoulders. People increasingly now indentify themselves either as Welsh or English or Scottish and they want to move towards determining their own future. It’s as simple as that. People who ignore that are behind the times and the tide of history.”

But for Osmond it’s difficult to compare Wales and Scotland: “When parliament first met 12 years ago in Scotland the parliament was in a keystone place in the already existing structures, Scotland. A lot of Scottish institutions already existed like the Scottish education system, the Scottish legal system and all the rest of it.In Wales there is none of that – or very little. So when the assembly met for the first time in 1999, it wasn’t as though the keystone was placed in an arch, we had to make an arch.”

Even Plaid’s Edwards acknowledges the debate has not really “kicked off” in Wales yet.

“What tends to happen in Wales, we're about 10 years behind Scotland. We let them make their step and then we make the argument for the next 10 years to get where they were. That’s what will happen in this case, I would imagine.”

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With no Scotland does the UK become too dominated by the English? Would it trigger a domino effect that would push Wales out of the union? It was a little-noticed remark. While Alex Salmond’s bat...
With no Scotland does the UK become too dominated by the English? Would it trigger a domino effect that would push Wales out of the union? It was a little-noticed remark. While Alex Salmond’s bat...
 
 
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07:47 AM on 03/10/2012
There is no appetite in Wales for independence in fact there is a growing resentment of Cymraeg ( the langauge spoken by a minority in Wales) by the English speaking Welsh. Wales is British first. God save the queen!
03:51 PM on 02/21/2012
When asked for my nationality I always answer British. Reading the various comments here shows a minority ( well the polls tell me it is, but you cannot always trust them ) have such a hate of the english they would do almost anything to jump ship. The majority ( if the polls are right ) are keeping their own council, with the odd one showing a degree of caution by wondering if the supposed benefits really do exist. I think this nation is greater than the sum of it's component parts and before I would agree to "jump over the wall", I would not only want to see what was on the other side, I would be testing the ground to make sure that " lush green" landing area is not moss overlying quicksand. Politicians are experts at divide and conquer, as well as smoke and mirrors but if you are an old age pensioner or a weaker member of our society you will be the ones who will pay the price for their mistakes. They (the politico's) always have Plan's B,C,D etc. when it comes to their own futures, the rest of us are stuck with Plan A.
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Michaelxx
06:48 PM on 02/13/2012
go for let England be England...just as long as we dont have to give them any of our English money..for any reason other than us buying stuff from them..cant think of what we would buy from them really.They more trouble to us than they are worth...but what do I know Im just an old Englishman.
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Michaelxx
03:37 PM on 02/09/2012
if Scotland and Wales want independence let them have it.Let England be England. Just so long as England does not have to pay any of the taxpayers money to them for any reason....that applies to giving our money to other countries because they need aid....so do I and millions of others in England
11:15 AM on 02/02/2012
Who was it said that patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel? The United Kingdom has actually been basically one country for hundreds of years. Scotland, Wales and England, for example are part of a single island. Naturally, people have an affection for the city, town, village and part of the island they were born in, but in the 21st century to fragment it doesn't seem logical, it seems like a step back. A person from Liverpool is a Liverpolitan, a Manchester person a Mancunion. Some refer to people as Scousers or Geordies or Brummies because its natural to feel affection for your birthplace - but to fragment the islands, primarily because of one obsessed politician, seems suicidal.
03:16 AM on 02/13/2012
when the south tried to break free in the states 150 years lincoln took care of business and they are still part of the states today.
04:43 PM on 01/26/2012
Lets hope so.
02:51 PM on 01/24/2012
i think the politicos in westminster,are completely misunderstanding the feelings of the english.if they were to read the polls,they would find we english WANT scotland to leave,and i daresay we'd want wales and n.ireland gone aswell.we raise the taxes that keeps thecelts in the lifestyle they're accustomed.if they think they are being hard done by vote for independence,but they wont.they'll just wheedle more money out of the english taxpayer,aided and abbetted by the anti english(good english name cameron)PM..cameron.who'll claim hes saved the union and put billions more debt onto the english taxpayer...all in all we need a deceltification of the english beaurocracy root and branch
01:24 AM on 01/28/2012
I understand your sentiments re the scots but they should remain part of the uk...them leaving will cost both the scots and the rest of the uk one hell of a big mess.
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Seaniebhoy
09:23 PM on 01/23/2012
I think too much was read into Jones’ remarks…he said that there would need to be a “re-think” in the relationship between Wales and the Union…hardly the call to independence or even devolution. A re-think could mean anything but my guess would be an increase in the number of Welsh PM's maybe even a cabinet spot or two.
01:46 PM on 01/22/2012
united we stand divided we fall sums it all up really Scotland will be politically and financialy week as will Whale and England as separate entities fair game for international bankers and European politicos and Salmond will at least grasped a bit of power it is truly sad that our nation is torn apart for the benefit of a few at a cost for so many but if it is to be make it fast and final Red xxx
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Christos Palmer
Χριστός Παλμερ
04:56 AM on 02/01/2012
1,500 years of English occupation, and you still can't spell Wales correctly! By the way, its not even Wales, its Cymru. Education, you can't beat it!
03:16 AM on 02/13/2012
who cares?
07:09 AM on 01/22/2012
Suggesting that England would dominate the Union if Scotland left is rather strange. Out of 650 seats in Parliament about 530 are English seats. That's pretty dominant already. Wales has 40 seats.
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Christos Palmer
Χριστός Παλμερ
04:49 AM on 02/01/2012
We are at the mercy of another Maggie Thatcher if Scotland leaves the union, not that being outnumbered is something new for us. 60 million English and 3 million Welsh. I wonder who will win this one?
06:26 PM on 02/24/2013
listen big hedd...we english want the jocks,taffs and mini jocks gone..no more sponging off the english...got it good........now go back to playing with dolly..
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William1950
everything I say could be wrong.
03:03 AM on 01/22/2012
what? it is my firm belief that soon we need to become one world.. one people... the governments of nations will always be inefficient.. it's up to the people, the citizens to hold them to account.. to make them represent the people's interests.. I have never heard of this issue before being from the republic of mississippi ... and if certain folk here had their way they too would secede from the union.. bad idea.
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06:32 PM on 02/24/2013
listen mate..we english have had devolution for jocks,taffs and mini jocks...but nothing for the english except the bill..we english want taxes raised in england spent in england on the english..the celt led governments have deliberately let in 10000's of immigrants and asylum seekers,and coupled with the anti english human rights act,we cant kick them out..........yet..and then there is the celt led governments getting us into illegal wars(started by the yanks).so all in all i wouldn't wait for the vote i'd drive them and their spawn out...back to the glens,valleys and bogs....got my drift......good
06:30 PM on 01/21/2012
A wee point here, I couldn't be arsed to read the article past the first paragraph but:

Without Scotland there is no United Kingdom of Great Britain.

Wales stopped being a seperate political and legal entity in the days of Henry VIII and was subsumed into Greater England right up until they eventually accepted devolution. One thing puzzles me about Wales, the England and Wales Cricket Board is known as the ECB and plays international test cricket as England proudly wearing the three 'lions' on their breast! How come?

The Irish joined the UK in 1801 as 'and Ireland' and left again in 1914 leaving the anomaly of the 6 northern counties of Ulster that refused to go with them.

The Treaty of Union of 1707 which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain joined the kingdoms of Scotland and England. There are no other kingdoms in the equation, therefore when that Treaty of Union is revoked there is no more UK. full stop!
As most people in England have until very very recently had the utmost difficulty in differentiating England from Empire Great Britain or United Kingdom I fail to see how the rump left over would be called anything other than England.
06:53 PM on 01/21/2012
Ok wee typo there 1916 for the Easter Uprising and 1922 for independence. I know!
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Seaniebhoy
09:28 PM on 01/23/2012
Eh wee typo yourself...1916 was the uprising, Free State Status 1922, we were not a sovereign state until 37, and not a Republic till the 40's
01:48 PM on 01/22/2012
Congratulations its not often posters get all the facts wrong well done Red xxxx
02:53 PM on 01/22/2012
Fair enough Red, care to elucidate? Every day is a school day!
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CymroTramor
saysomethinginwelsh
03:47 PM on 01/21/2012
Cymru am byth!!!!
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06:58 PM on 01/21/2012
... a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i chi.
07:02 PM on 01/21/2012
Aye ye can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
Feumaidh mi falbh, oidhche mhath!
09:53 AM on 01/21/2012
English independence is inevitable, with Winchester becoming the capital. London with it's multifaceted inhabitants from all parts of the British Isles and overseas, should be the hub of the new federated Kingdom - FKGB (Federal Kingdom of Great Britain) anyone?
12:34 PM on 01/21/2012
What city/town will the capital be of the fedaral kingdom of Cornwall?
06:17 PM on 01/21/2012
The fair city of Truro
08:30 AM on 01/21/2012
A warning to Scotland, do not let Blair or Brown rule your country. I'm English but I wish you all the best but I hope you vote no and stay united.
06:35 PM on 02/24/2013
traitor...we want them and their spawn gone...