Lord Ashdown To Vote Against Government On Benefit Reform

Lord Ashdown

First Posted: 22/01/2012 20:05 Updated: 22/01/2012 20:18   PA

The Government is braced for a bruising clash with the House of Lords over Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith's flagship benefit reforms.

Ministers fear a combination of Church of England bishops and rebel Liberal Democrats could undermine a planned £500-a-week cap on benefit payments when peers vote on the measure tomorrow.

Former Lib Dem leader Lord Ashdown today became the most high profile figure so far to speak out against the plans, denouncing them as "completely unacceptable" in their current form.

He said that as president of the United Nations' children's agency, Unicef, he was not prepared to support them in tomorrow's vote on amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill.

"I voted with the Government on everything until now," he told Sky News's Murnaghan programme. "I see it as my job as an ex-leader to support my successor but I will not support the benefit cap in its present form."

Despite the divisions in his own ranks, however, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said he was fully signed up to the changes.

"I completely back Iain Duncan Smith on this," he told BBC1's The Andrew Marr Show.

"It surely can't be fair, it can't be right, that you can be earning, if you like, more on benefits than someone going out earning £35,000."

Mr Clegg suggested there was some scope for softening the impact of the changes through "transitional arrangements" around the introduction of the cap.

However he flatly rejected an amendment tabled by the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, the Rt Rev John Packer, which would exclude child benefit payments from the £500-a-week limit.

"If you did that it probably wouldn't make much sense trying to have a cap at all," he said.

Ministers appear determined to ride out the opposition, believing there is strong public support for their plans to curb the benefits dependency culture and "make work pay".

Mr Clegg brushed aside "apocalyptic" claims that thousands of families - particularly in London and the South East - could be forced to leave their homes as a result of the changes.

"This is not going to be some sort of punitive programme of mass homelessness," he said. "Of course we won't allow that to happen."

Labour, in contrast, reacted cautiously, suggesting that it would try to find a compromise between the Government and the bishops.

"Labour won't be voting against the benefits cap because we support the principles and the responsibility to take a job if you can work," a spokesman said.

"But we will be seeking to amend the Bill, to bring a compromise between the bishops and the Government because we don't think council taxpayers should be hit with a massive bill for homelessness."

Bishop Packer said he hoped to win support in the Lords for his amendment, which was intended to protect the most vulnerable families.

"What we're talking about tomorrow is children in families where the welfare benefits have been cut to a point where they are less than Parliament actually has said they should be, because that's what a cap does," he told the BBC's Sunday Morning programme.

However, Mr Duncan Smith launched a blistering attack on the bishops, accusing them of ignoring the concerns of ordinary families who try to "do the right thing".

"The question I'd ask these bishops is, over all these years, why have they sat back and watched people being placed in houses they cannot afford? It's not a kindness," he said.

"I would like to see their concerns about ordinary people, who are working hard, paying their tax and commuting long hours, who don't have as much money as they would otherwise because they're paying tax for all of this. Where is the bishops' concern for them?

"It's all very well for the bishops to express a political opinion, but I would love them to ask about the poor people on low incomes who are working hard, whose families share rooms, who are doing the right thing."

Employment Minister Chris Grayling tonight acknowledged some families would be forced to find new accommodation as a result of the changes.

"There certainly will be people who have to move house as a result of this, who have to move to a part of town they can afford to live in, but surely that is right," he told BBC Radio 5 Live's Pienaar's Politics.

With Labour officials refusing to say whether they would support Bishop Packer's amendment, Mr Grayling said Labour now needed to decide where it stood on the issue.

"I really think Labour has to decide: does it want to deliver the kind of change to the welfare state that all the evidence says the public overwhelmingly want or is it going to line up on the other side and try and chip away at reforms that are essential?" he said.

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The Government is braced for a bruising clash with the House of Lords over Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith's flagship benefit reforms. Ministers fear a combination of Church of Englan...
The Government is braced for a bruising clash with the House of Lords over Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith's flagship benefit reforms. Ministers fear a combination of Church of Englan...
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01:13 AM on 01/23/2012
There are some aspects of the bill which are reasonable on the surface, ie the fact that working people can often have a lesser standard of living than people on benefits, it does happen in some if not many cases. The problem lies in the details, the details of individuals lives. What I find completely outrageous is that the government, this one and the last have greatly exaggerated the level of welfare abuse and fraud in order to drive through legislation that has a very cruel affect on the most needy in society. The general public are absolutely right to be outraged about the fact that some people claim benefits fraudulantly or are being housed in an expensive part of town which a working family can't afford but I feel they should be equally, if not more outraged at the fact that the government are making drastic, often punitive cuts to a safety net which they may well need themselves at one time.
Successive governments have made extensive use of the 'get a bigger hammer approach' to governing. When it comes to society and work, it's quite telling that in reality if people are given decent wages to beging with, there is very little sign of workshyness. It's also quite telling that almost every honest study of employment has shown that reducing the working week from 40 to 30 hours, which is a cut of 25% almost always only produces a 6% reduction in productivity. Think about that one.
01:04 AM on 01/23/2012
I have worked all my life, never taken any benefits from the state and hear that someone with a family who sits on their butt all day long watching day time TV can take £26000, or about £35000 in wages before tax a year sickens me. No wonder no-one wants to work and immigrants are coming over for the jobs, there is no incentive to get up and work. I hear the liberals saying well it will affect people with large families, I say tough its their choice to bang out kids like theres no tomorrow, anyone working has to seriously think about whether they can afford another child or manage on one income. I get sick and tired of going into peoples houses who are on benefits and seeing bottles of booze, cigarettes, the lastest fashions and a 52 inch plasma tv with full HD satalitte attached and they all say they are hard up. Why can`t they be paid in vouchers where luxeries, alcohol and cigarettes cannot be brought.
07:17 AM on 01/23/2012
Put us on par with the scroungers, raise the tax free allowance to £26,000.
12:45 AM on 01/23/2012
This governemnt is always intent on `capping `the poorest, and most vulnerable in our society and taxing, quite heavily the lowest paid in this country, while totally ignoring the most affluent.!
You will never hear them speak of `capping ` bankers and financiers massive salaries and bonuses. Or the inflated salaries and expenses they themselves vote for themselves.
I normal jobs in this country, if you are forced to work away from home , you are given a subsistance allowance from your company.
The company does not buy you a second home , and maimtain it to a very high standard for you.!I think Mr Cleggs crocodile tears for the poor low paid worker in this country, nothing short of a joke, when the policies of this coalition government, which he supports, does nothing, to address the problem of unfare wealth distribution. Under these circumstances , the old addage applies . The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer`, by the day .
12:13 AM on 01/23/2012
Please don't forget that the cap applies to people who are genuinely disabled and have alot of expenses to deal with that disability eg: pay for carers, medication, treatments that are not available on the NHS - and believe me there are alot of them -, transport to hospital visits - because it's almost impossible to get assisted transport nowadays -, and many other expenses related to their disabilities. We don't get luxuries, can barely afford new clothes and are almost housebound as the councils are cutting back on day centre access. So, not only do they want to cap benefits for the disabled, they are also cutting all of our services so, if we need them, we have to pay for them with less money. How is that fair?
02:11 AM on 01/23/2012
I totally agee with you . I have very good reason to understand every word you say. It is national disgrace. Here in Scotland , our SNP government have said that they will not implement such socially destructive policies. I hope that they adhere to that. I myself am a cancer sufferer, and the hospital I attend is almost 60 miles from my home.
If you read my comments, regarding my suppport of Scottish independence, I hope that you realise , that they are not anti English. They are anti government policies that hurt the most vulnerable in our society, while seeming supporting the rich to get richer, at the expense of the same most vulnerable.
I wish you luck, and the way this country is being run, at present, I think we will all have need of luck.
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Allyb999
12:05 AM on 01/23/2012
Work as a paramedic full time and don't take home £500 a week, yet people can get this in benefits. How can this be right.
02:43 AM on 01/23/2012
Please dont think I attack your way of thinking ,but imagine the situation, that most of us disabled find ourselves in. I loved my self employed work. I enjoyed the day to day hassle , and the long distances I travelled to engagements. Then, one day I could no longer do this , and took ill with thought , that I would never, do this again. You are a paramedic and that is to be highly commended. I only ask you, to ask yourself , if , in 1 years time , you were given the news that I was given, if it would change your mind.? That figuer of £500 per week is very fanciful, and I think , would only apply to a very small minority, in very exceptional circumstances. As a paramedic, you must transport the sick and disabled. Please ask them , how many receive £500 per week benefits, and I`ll bet you my beloved Fender guitar that you will not find one who says `me`. My regards to you.
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Allyb999
11:33 AM on 01/23/2012
No problem Victor but even a small minority taking more than £500 a week in benefits must be wrong. I was in no way having a go at the disabled and hope I am never in that position.
11:25 PM on 01/22/2012
Lord Ashdown, you are talking rubbish, and this is a not good talk. "The UK benefit system is beyond belief, it encourages unemployed poor, young people to act irresponsible''.
karen1963yorks
My micro bio was empty. Good.
11:21 PM on 01/22/2012
What planet are these unelected people on? They think people working on minimum wage should pay more tax in order to pay other people benefits of OVER £500 a week?
11:09 PM on 01/22/2012
I wish I had £500 a week tax free, together with all the other 'things' I would get. This is an insult to all the millions who have worked all their lives, sometimes for the minimum wage and possibly under as there was no minimum wage when I started work. Make them go back to work or start taking some sort of tax out of benefit towards all the services which they use as well. If people are in real need no-one begrudges them help but there are too many who are having a laugh.
03:14 AM on 01/23/2012
Please dont take offence, but I am sitting at my computer laughing, because of the comments I read from yourself, and several other indignant commentators on this page today. I can only tell you, that the figuer of £500 per week, is very fanciful, I could prove to you , beyond any reasonable doubt that the ammount you speak of , even with a high DLA award, is less, per single person, other than in exceptional cases, than half the £26.000 you speak of. I say this to you, regarding our caring goverments attitude towards the disabled, the propaganda spread , that encourages views such as you seem to hold. If your dog has fleas , you do not shoot the dog, you kill the fleas.
Everyone and cousin knows that there are abusers of every system. But it is not right, nor fair, that the `dogs` are treated like the `fleas.` You never know in life, when you may become one of the `dogs` yourself.
11:07 PM on 01/22/2012
I can't believe it,are people realy getting £500 a week in benefit's, that's £26,000 per year. I'm self employed and last year I made around £17,000, after expenses, and then I had to pay tax and national insurance out of that. This country is a joke, rewarding scroungers at the expence of people who work hard, pay their taxes, and worry about the consequenses off not doing so. God I hate this country!
karen1963yorks
My micro bio was empty. Good.
11:24 PM on 01/22/2012
Some are getting more than £63000 tax free. Tthat is equal to a worker on over £90,000 a year.
04:01 AM on 01/23/2012
Dear karen1963yorks, pardon me, but may I ask if you are in any way related to Hans Christian Anderson.?
03:20 AM on 01/23/2012
You are quite right not to believe it,!
10:37 PM on 01/22/2012
The `cap` should be put on landlords and not joe public .
10:52 PM on 01/22/2012
Should be put on BOTH me thinks.
karen1963yorks
My micro bio was empty. Good.
11:26 PM on 01/22/2012
So if I owned a 30 bedroom mansion in London and wanted to charge £600 a week to some weathy tenant that would be illegal?
03:34 AM on 01/23/2012
The short answer to that , is YES. What the government is arguing , is the ammount that is payed in housing benefit , to landlords, who exploit the people who do not have £600 per week, by charging excessive rents , knowing it will be covered by housing benefit.
But with their usual lack of care and understanding of the suituation, they attack the the claiment of the benefit, the person in need, rather than attack the unscupulous greedy landlord.!
10:20 PM on 01/22/2012
why should I on £25000 a year for working 40 hrs per week have money deducted from my wages to give to people who do not work and who recieve £50000 per year handouts.
Maybe I should give up work and hold my hand out too!
03:56 AM on 01/23/2012
Speaking as a disabled person, I would not be in too much of a hurry to terminate any form of paid employment, lest you discover the truth, financialy, of disabilty. Your stated ammount of £50.000 is nothing short of laughable, and ridiculous. Regarding the money you pay in tax, I think if you count the percentage of what the Government spends on, foreign aid, MP`s salaries and expenses, propping up incompetent investment banks, new high speed trains,, and the millions to be spent on security for the Olympic Games,and financing the military invasion of many oil producing countries, to `help` the poor people whose `human rights` are being abused, I think, that you will find , that this along with other projects financed by this government, that it is a small percentage of your tax pound, that is spent on the sick or disabled, most of whom were in work till they could no longer phyically manage it.
09:03 AM on 01/23/2012
it is not the sick and disabled who are claiming benefits that are the problem, it is those who are claiming housing benefits who are NOT sick or disabled where the problem lies.
09:45 PM on 01/22/2012
joke! 26k cap thats more than most people earn get them back in work rather then career dole claiments of which we breed in the uk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:58 PM on 01/22/2012
Just think for those Dole claimants to get £26000 that is the equivelent of Joe Bloggs having to earn £34000 top line, don't know about you but I would love to be on that sort of money for working a 40hr week let alone being given it for sitting on my asss.
karen1963yorks
My micro bio was empty. Good.
11:27 PM on 01/22/2012
We breed them AND we import them.
09:43 PM on 01/22/2012
I have just retired, and throughout my working life I have never earned 26,000 gross let alone net.

What one person gets without working,another person works for without getting.
09:27 PM on 01/22/2012
READ QUICKLY BEFORE THIS IS REMOVED.

Ahh! something we can comment on, but no one is commenting. They have all lost appitite for free speech, I guess.
09:24 PM on 01/22/2012
Interesting quote from CLegg:

"Mr Clegg brushed aside "apocalyptic" claims that thousands of families - particularly in London and the South East - could be forced to leave their homes as a result of the changes."This is not going to be some sort of punitive programme of mass homelessness," he said. "Of course we won't allow that to happen."


And how exactly does he intend to prevent it? If a landlord is asking for more rent than the benefit cap of £500 will stand, then they are going to have to leave. And if people cannot afford to live in London, who is going to do all the countless menial jobs that the capital NEEDS?

Poor Clegg - he really hasn't thought this through at all. Neither has anyone in the Whig-Tory coalition, for that matter.
11:01 PM on 01/22/2012
No, it's you who hasn't thought this through. Did you actually read what you had written?

You said "who is going to do all the countless menial jobs that the capital NEEDS?"

The whole point is that these people AREN'T working. Please try to keep up.
04:01 PM on 01/23/2012
Oh I see where you are confusing yourself now. What you probably forgot (let's be generous and assume you did know) is that lots of people are on benefits but are actually working too. Income support, working tax credits, housing benefit, child benefit and so forth.

Now, suppose someone has several children, is working full time on the minimum wage being a cleaner in London, requires a 5 bedroom house. Clearly they can't afford the mortgage anywhere in London - but obviously they can't afford the rent either. And if they move to somewhere well outside London where the rent is cheaper then on the minimum wage, they won't be able to afford the train/tube/DLR either.

There arent' enough council houses to go round these days. So, if they can't actually live in London when the benefits are capped at £500 per week in total, including Child Benefit, then they will only have one option - move to where rents are cheaper.

Now the reason why rents will be cheaper in come parts is because landlords cannot charge high rents, because there is very high unemployment. So, a working person will move to where there is no work.

Like I say, the Whig-Tory coalition hasn't thought it through.

You get the picture I'm sure.
karen1963yorks
My micro bio was empty. Good.
11:35 PM on 01/22/2012
I know a few people working in London. They live in Leeds.
And if people cannot afford to live in London, who is going to do all the countless menial jobs that the capital NEEDS?
Answer well NOT the unemployed. they dont have jobs. Hence the name.
I just did a property for rent search for London and found thousands of houses for £250 a week.
Why should the unemployed live in London when many employed people cant afford to?
04:19 PM on 01/23/2012
And to get to London every day (you MUST be speaking of commuting otherwise they would have to have two homes) they would spend either 8 hours commuting in a car, or 4 hours commuting on a train ASSUMING they live in City Square in Leeds and work at King's cross. Now, are you aware how much train fares cost, or how much petrol costs? Because I'm not sure the minimum wage would cover it. (After food, I presume you permit people to eat?)

Of course they COULD catch a National Express Coach to London from Leeds, and back of course, but that takes a total of 9 hours every day.

Now, these houses you found for £250 per week - tell me, how many bedrooms? Enough to house a family of 4?

Or are we talking rank squalor?

"Why should the unemployed live in London when many employed people cant afford to?"

Unwittingly, you have hit the nail on the head. If employed people cannot afford to live in the capital this means that they REQUIRE state support to live there, then the uncomfortable implication is that businesses are relying on the state to subsidise their poor wages.
04:20 PM on 01/23/2012
Now I put it to you that it is not the function of the state to subsidise businesses, unless the state has taken a strategic decision to own a particular loss-making business for the benefit of the nation, eg the NHS.

You have in fact hit upon a very stron g argument for setting the minimum wage in London at least at a much higher level. Weak businesss should go to the wall. The state is not there to prop them up. If they can't pay for the owner to put his children through Roedean and Eton, go skiing in Meribel and have a laze about in Tuscany for 2 weeks a year AND pay a living wage to the workers, then I'm afraid it's just not a viable business. (Well unless the owner takes a smaller share of the profits, but hey, we aren't socialists).

One more thing, given that there is and must be a turnover of workers, there actually has to be a pool of unemployed to fill the gaps. Even in the capital. I'm sure you can work out the logic of that without me labouring the point?