Ed Miliband Sets Out His Case For Scotland Staying In The UK

Miliband

PA/Huffington Post UK   First Posted: 30/01/2012 06:25 Updated: 30/01/2012 11:51

Ed Miliband has set out his case for keeping Scotland within the Union in a speech in Glasgow on Monday

The Labour leader talked of the "progressive" argument for rejecting independence in what the party billed as a major speech on the constitution.

Miliband's speech comes a day after Alex Salmond rejected suggestions that voters should be asked in the referendum on Scottish independence if they want to leave the United Kingdom.

The Scottish First Minister said introducing the UK into the question would "confuse the issue" because the country would retain the Queen as head of state after breaking the political union.

In acknowledging Labour's defeat to the SNP at last May's Scottish Parliament election, Miliband said: "I come here with humility about the scale of challenge for Labour - nine months after we lost the Scottish elections."

Sharing the stage with the new Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont, Miliband said: "I have no doubt, even as we speak, that the SNP are getting ready to say how dare I, as someone born and living in England, come here and join this argument. And when they ask, what has it got to do with me, let me address this head-on.

"Not just as leader of the Labour Party, but on the basis of my personal history, as someone who has a deep reason to appreciate the strength of the United Kingdom."

Ed Miliband talked about how his father trained for the Royal Navy aboard HMS Valorous on the Firth of Forth, and insisted that: "if the people of Scotland decide to separate, as they can, it would not affect Scotland alone. It will affect all of us in the four nations of this country."

He went on to day: "I support Scotland as part of the United Kingdom, not because I think Scotland is too poor or too weak to break away. But for a profoundly different reason.

"Because I believe that Scotland as part of the United Kingdom is better for the working people of Scotland, and better for the working people of the United Kingdom as a whole."

His intervention comes five days after Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond launched his consultation on the staging of the independence referendum, which he wants to hold in autumn 2014.

At an international press conference at Edinburgh Castle, and earlier inside the Scottish Parliament, Mr Salmond set out his plan to end the three-centuries union with England.

He proposes that voters are asked: do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?

Salmond used a lecture in London last week to describe an independent Scotland as a "beacon for progressive opinion" for those south of the border.

Later on Monday a campaign will be launched in Edinburgh to seek wider views on the future of the constitution, including the potential for a second question on extra powers short of full independence.

The movement brings together a coalition of organisations, including the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, and is backed by former Labour first minister Henry McLeish.

Salmond has proposed a straight yes-no question but left room for further options for enhance devolution, so-called devo-max.

Commenting on Miliband's expected comments, SNP MSP Bill Kidd said: "The attitude of UK leaders like Mr Miliband to Scotland’s ambitions to run our own affairs and take responsibility for our own decisions is just one of the factors holding them back in Scotland."

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Ed Miliband has set out his case for keeping Scotland within the Union in a speech in Glasgow on Monday The Labour leader talked of the "progressive" argument for rejecting independence in what the...
Ed Miliband has set out his case for keeping Scotland within the Union in a speech in Glasgow on Monday The Labour leader talked of the "progressive" argument for rejecting independence in what the...
 
 
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hearthammer
If left is right and right is wrong, decide!
09:45 on 02/02/2012
Ed says.........well, nothng really! Just like the rest of the naysayers. I guess we Scots will have to wait untl one week before polling day to find out ONE good reason for staying in the union!
22:17 on 31/01/2012
Milliband said........: "I support Scotland as part of the United Kingdom, "Because I believe that Scotland as part of the United Kingdom is better for the working people of Scotland, and better for the working people of the United Kingdom as a whole."
After 300 years, we are expected to believe this S--t......
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22:59 on 31/01/2012
Apparently we are. Still waiting for that elusive, "positive case." All he said was, "stronger together, weaker apart." That isn't a "positive case," its an intellegence insulting slogan. They don't work any more.
22:50 on 30/01/2012
The dependents have so far only spouted daft scare stories and outright lies. Well here is a real scare for THEM. There were only two equal sovereign signatories on the Treaty of Union. Wales are an English principality and the Irish crown rested then on an English head. England thus signed as Greater England. When the divorce becomes absolute there can be no, "Parliament of the United Kingdom", and England has no legally elected parliament. Further, the, so called Treaty of Union 1801, it is not a treaty. It is two Acts Of Parliament. The Acts of Union 1800 (sometimes called the Acts of Union 1801) describe two complementary Acts. the Union with Ireland Act 1800 (39 & 40 Geo. 3 c. 67), an Act of the Parliament of Great Britain, and the Act of Union (Ireland) 1800 (40 Geo. 3 c. 38), an Act of the Parliament of Ireland.
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18:18 on 31/01/2012
The UK is an internationally recognised entity.

If part of it breaks away, the UK still remains.
15:14 on 01/02/2012
You think so?
Where is the USSR now?
No More.

Where is the British Empire?
Gone.

Where is All Ireland?
Half of it a republic.

Where is Canada, New Zealand and Australia?
All once part of the British Empire which is now also long gone.
All the above were also entities once internationally recognized.

You need to check on UN law.
EU law and Council of Europe law.
22:18 on 30/01/2012
The British people demand a say on where British Oil Revenues are spent.

Would the Scot's deny that North Sea Oil was developed to benefit the whole of Britain ?
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Allyb999
23:26 on 30/01/2012
Stop talking about history, we live in the 21st century so start getting real,,,who cares who signed what thirty to forty years ago,,,,get real people this is here and now.
23:40 on 30/01/2012
Indeed we can and do. The first thing you need to know is that the UK government has nothing to do with the exploration, drilling or extraction of the oil. They just sell permits to explore. Then licence to extract and then tax every barrel at the wellhead. They tax the profits of the companies too.The Scottish First Minister was then the BOS oil expert. The main funding in the early days was puit up by the Scottish financial sector. So the oil was all 100% private investment. Then we have the fact that up to 98% of the oil & Gas comes from Scottish territory. That also means that all installations, of any kind, pay Crown Estate Rentals & Royalties and Scotland is a sovereign country. Ship's moorings are also charged royalties. Then we have the duty that is charged on every litre of fuel that leaves the refinary gates. You really don't have a clue, do you?
21:37 on 30/01/2012
It may be oif interest to the outside World that there are many mistaken assumptions on the Scottish independence. Just one of which may make the World sit up and take notice. There were only two signatories on the Treaty Of Union 1707. This is the treaty that gave birth to the Parliament of the United Kingdom". Those signatories were the two equal sovereign nations, Scotland & England. Wales was a principality of England & the Irish crown already on the English Monarch's head. So they were all an English kingdom they thus are not signatories. When Scotland leaves the union "The Parliament of The United Kingdom", is no more. The degree absolute ends the marriage, (The Parliament of the United Kingdom), and leaves only two sovereign countries. There is no legally elected Parliament of England. By the way The, (so called), Treaty of Union 1801., is actually two Acts of the parliament. You cannot make a treaty with yourself.
22:22 on 30/01/2012
Stop talking about history, we live in the 21st century so start getting real,,,who cares who signed what two or three hundred years ago,,,,get real people this is here and now and as the world pulls closer together the SNP want to pull the nation of Great Britain apart.
Alex Salmond and his SNP activist buds should hang there heads in shame.!
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Allyb999
23:23 on 30/01/2012
Oh Dear Yormerlin you certainly have been quoting history recently till someone does the same back, then it is stop talking about history.
23:58 on 30/01/2012
HA!HA!HA! Don't make me laugh so much. The whole thing IS historic treaties and events. First of all the Royals made the United Kingdom - what did you thing the word "KING", meant? The King of England, (The Monarch of England is sovereign), had no heir and The King Of Scots, (he is not sovereign), was invited to ascend the throne of England. However, Wales was/is an English principality so the prince is his parents subject, as are all English people. We Scots are sovereign, not our monarch, Thus titled King/Queen of Scots. So the four countries had only one monarch in 1603. as the English crown included the Irish crown too. 103 years later the two countries signed, "The Treaty Of Union", to have a joint parliament in 1707. That Parliament is, "Her Majesty's Parliament". The Treaties are legal documents under international law. So Two nations in a partnership. One pulls out and neither can claim the United Kingdom Parliament because the Treaty is no more and each has an equal right to it. Like it or not - that is the legal situation.
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Spanky McFarlane
ILLEGITIMUS NON CARBORUNDUM.
22:24 on 30/01/2012
To be fair, I doubt the 'outside world' gives a rats buttocks about who signed what back in 17WTF?

That was then & this is now, & i for one can not see how anyone can opt in & out of common sense or 'cherry pick' nuances & ignore the reality on the ground.
back in the day Scotlands many migrants were of an economic nature, much the way they are today. A lot of it had to do with the ability to grow 8 months of food in a Country with a 12 month Calendar- Perhaps when the separatist 'hoards' get their way they can wave their magic wand & change that too? (lol) After all, who wants to share a calender with the 'boys' from Grenich & what do they know about marking time?

Cheers from the 'Outside World'.
00:34 on 31/01/2012
Wrong. Examples of how history is still the law. In the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath to The Pontif in Rome which The Pope ratified Scotland became an internationally recognized sovereign nation. It did much more. Before this Robert Bruce Killed The Comyn on the alter steps of Dumfries High Kirk. The Pope excommunicated him, and the Scottish nation. He ruled that every English Church would curse the Scots at every service. The Declaration overcome all this. It states the Scottish King was not sovereign, but the Scottish people are. They, being sovereign, chose their leader AND reserved the right to sack a monarch who did not fulfill his duty. The Pope agreed and that became law. To prove this is still true, if you park a vehicle on private land in England the landlord can clamp it and demand payment. However, Scots are sovereign so they own Scotland and the clamper is charged with demanding money with menace. We Scots have right to roam and even her Majesty could not prevent the public crossing her Balmoral Estate. There is no Trespass laws in Scotland. Those old treaties are still the legal position. Another thing you may not know Berwick is still Scottish territory but, by agreement, is administered by the English county.
14:50 on 01/02/2012
Do you not read well? The history is what Scottish, independent Scottish, law is based upon and I have already explained that. Her Majesty The Queen of Scots, (Thats The Queen of England to you, attempted to prevent the People of Scotland, (that is anyone of any ethnic background, or place of birth, resident and registered as a tax payer in Scotland), from access to her Balmoral Estate. There are several Right-of-Way paths across the estate. Her case failed as the Monarch IS NOT sovereign in Scotland, The People of Scotland are. That is modern Scottish law and based upon the Declaration of Arbroath. Then we have the modern Scottish law that sees anyone who clamps, or prevents a vehicle exit, from private land and demands a fee to release it is charged with demanding money with menace. Not 12 century law but here and now. These treaties and legal declarations ARE modern law, as are the laws of England. Here is one English law, bang up to date. "Fred The Shred", has just lost his English Knighthood, but the law cannot take away the peerages of convicted crimminals still sitting in the House Of Lords. There is one such Lady who was convicted of fiddling her expenses, she has not yet paid the stolen money back but has returned to the house and claims her expenses, and her £300 per day attendance fee. That is the truth of the matter.
13:06 on 30/01/2012
Salmond never said leave UK or Sterling or EU. Just scotland deal with its own local gov.& taxation.Can't blame them as Thatcher put pensioners in prison.Good thing if Eng. has regional assemblies.No uni fees. no prescription charges No cameron, no coaltn
13:55 on 30/01/2012
If what salmond only wants to deal with his local government and taxation then basically all he wants is devo-max.
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18:21 on 31/01/2012
Maybe he'll tell us all one day.
15:30 on 30/01/2012
Federating the UK makes sense. We've also got Northern Ireland and Wales to consider.
16:18 on 30/01/2012
Federating does make sense actually. I think we need to get real about the future of the union and what role devo max is going to have in it. I think that if there is a second question on the referendum then that is most likely what the outcome would be. But the full devolution of powers to scotland will then result in the most likely outcome of full devolution to wals first and then northern ireland and then the government might actually catch up with the feeling in england about the need for a english government which then has full devolution. After that we should then have a federal senate like the one in america and bring that that in by scrapping the house of lords. Its an idea but it might actually keep the union going for longer than it would under the current form.
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12:18 on 30/01/2012
Cant we solve this once and for all? Get a chainsaw someone cut through the UK and tow Scotland further North and leave them alone with the oil they have, As Salmond says he thinks they will survive ok prove it!!!
12:24 on 30/01/2012
What a nasty, petulant, childish attitude. You should not be porting on serious political issues.
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Allyb999
14:45 on 30/01/2012
He would regret saying that if England sunk lol . Sorry I apologise but could not help it.
21:38 on 31/01/2012
That was a pretty stupid thing to say but its not any better than some of the things which some pro-independence people have said on here.
01:11 on 31/01/2012
Oh! That proof has already been done, over and over again. Have you, perchance, ever heard of the McCrone Report? Have you ever read the GERS, (Government Excise & Revenue Scotland), figures?

The myth that the Wastemonster Government has used for hundreds of years has obviously been believed more in England than in Scotland. Let me now have a laugh at your expense.
How can a country, (England), that does not even have a treasury, or government of its own but who belong to a United Kingdom that is in Fiscal Deficit, (look it up), subsidise anyone else? How can a country, (the UK is not a country, it is four countries in a political union), with over 3 billion pounds debt claim it subsidises everyone else? Facts - Scotland has been in surlpus for 5 out of the last 6 yeras while The UK as a whole has racked up massive debts.
12:01 on 30/01/2012
Nothing goes down well in Scotland better than an English Toff coming up to tell the Scots what to do. Hundreds of new SNP members by tomorrow, I predict!
12:32 on 30/01/2012
I don't think he will be quite as good at getting the SNP new members as Cameron was the other week, but let's see.
12:53 on 30/01/2012
A nation built on petty class resentment! Your dream come true!
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13:01 on 30/01/2012
We really do have our work cut out to try to rid our politics and our society of such petty stuff. It won't be an easy job, but I think we can agree that it's an imperative if we want to be taken seriously outwith our own borders.
01:25 on 31/01/2012
Eh! Petty class resentment? May I point out that it is Scotland that made prescriptions free for all, Removed University tuition fees and provides free care for the elderly. And before any numptie jumps in with the ignorant comment that the English subsidise it listen up. The Scots, unlike only the English have a Block Grant. This is worked out by per capita comparasons, (and before that ignorant one jumps in again go look up Barnett Consequentioals). Now the Block Grants to the other three countries are all capped so they must live within those constraints. Not so the English, who are funded as the UK and that is uncapped. There has never been a year that there has not been an English overspend so they do not live within their means. The way it is done is that the Scots do without other things to fund the thing they prefer. The Wastemonster goes in for big vanity projects like Cross-Rail systems, Olympic games, High Speed Rail Links, Every London Rail Terminal remoded, Extra airport runways, new underground rail links. Now look up Barnett Consequentials again.
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Chiefy17242011
Cyber-Nat, Cyber-Democrat
11:59 on 30/01/2012
That Positive Case For The Union In Full

But I am here to tell you that we need to make Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland a fairer, more just, place to live.And we can do this best together "

[Translation: Unless I get the same old 40-odd Placemen in Safe Seats that Jockland has delivered for the Labour Party since Time Immemorial, there will be a Thousand Years of Tory Rule in England.]

So, Call-Me-Ed, what EXACTLY did the Labour Party (You were a Cabinet Minister in the Last Labour Government, weren't you ?) do in your 13 Economy-Shafting years to MAKE "The UK" a fairer, more just place ?

Answers please on a postcard to.....

[Well, actually, a number of locations where passed Socialist Giants are Revolving in their Graves to such an extent that the earth's geomagnetic field is is in danger of disruption. I wonder if that is why we've had the great display of Aurora here in North Britain last week ?]

The one thing, one thing was the setting up of the Devolved Administrations. In that one act, they set in motion an inexorable pathway to Independence for Scotland, Wales and Ulster.

Freedom and Fairness will come only when the dead hands of London Labour and London Tories and their pals in "The City" are removed from around the necks of England's Last Colonies.
11:41 on 30/01/2012
what currency will Scotland use? Salmond says the pound with the Bank of England to back it. as that would leave Scotland at the mercy of Interest rates set outside the country, it rather defeats the concept of Independence.
will they apply for membership of the EU and agree to use the euro?
Spain indicated last week that they would veto any application by Scotland to join the EU.
how will the debt be divided up? what about the Debt of the Scottish Banks.?
if a new currency is brought in what impact would this have on those who live in the Borders. many from both sides work and shop on both sides, how will currency exchanges affect their incomes. what will the new Parliament do to help these people?
on the same subject there are many in Southern England who seek a time change, this is currently stopped due to Scotland. again such a change will impact on those living in the area.
many in the Borders use schools and NHS services on either side of the border. will this be stopped?
where will those living on the Scottish Borders go to for specialist treatment if hospitals at Carlisle and Newcastle are denied to them .

what will be the position regarding the Royal mail?
will Scotland introduce a new postal service?
i know these and many other factors are in the view of many small and they believe of no importance.
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Chiefy17242011
Cyber-Nat, Cyber-Democrat
12:09 on 30/01/2012
Firstly, Where did Spain indicate that they would "veto any application by Scotland to join the EU" ? Can anybody give me a link or citation ? Because I read this on every blog and board and nobody has yet been able to say who or where.

Secondly, WHAT SCOTTISH BANKS ? The only Scottish Bank is the Airdire Savings Bank. Any other bank (e.g. HALIFAX Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland/NATWEST) is a UK Bank, regulated by the UK Government, with shares traded on the UK Stock Exchange as a UK Company.

I would imagine as with everything else an Independent Scottish Government would take 8% of the Debt and 8% of the Asset (i.e Shares held by the UK Government) as a pro-rata of the Population of Scotland vs "The UK".

However, England can have 100% of Trident and 100% of the Rusting Nuclear Hulks sitting in Rosyth. We won't ask for Any of that whatsoever.

Your other points about a Postal Service, Fair enough. Like Every Other Independent Nation in The World with as far as I am aware the exception of Liechtenstein (who use the Swiss Postal Service), there will be a Independent Post Service (which may even be called the Royal Scottish Mail). It may even use existing Red Pillar Boxes and Post Offices.

You forgot Passports to visit your Granny in Liverpool, The BBC and "Scottish" Terrorists blowing up the Olympic Games.
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12:19 on 30/01/2012
"...England can have 100% of Trident and 100% of the Rusting Nuclear Hulks sitting in Rosyth. We won't ask for Any of that whatsoever...."

Not really a issue. As the UK has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, you wouldn't be getting them anyway.
12:30 on 30/01/2012
Spain could wield veto over Scotland's EU membership
Independence for Scots could embolden separatists in Catalonia and Basque region, Madrid fears
BRIAN BRADY SUNDAY 22 JANUARY 2012
you can read the article on line.

salmond claims continued ownership of the bank of scotland. . if you want independence are you prepared to let England run your financed affairs?

your figures on debt may be correct many dispute them. the point i make is let us find out what the final figure will be before the ref.
re the subs they will all leave as will the military bases in Scotland . either we pay for the new military services or have none. it will impact on jobs and the local economy. or are you happy for a foreign power to have a military presence in Scotland.

as for your last comments, it is that type of silly comment that is stopping the debate from moving forward.
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12:12 on 30/01/2012
The Spanish Finance Minister nailed that little rumour as "absolutely false," in a press conference last week. It is a scare story and, as all scare stories, it is without rational foundation.

Currency unions are commonplace around the world. There are cuurently over 60 nations involved in such arrangements. Scotland already owns a slice of the BoE so using Sterling, at least in the early years of indeoendence, makes a deal of sense.
12:31 on 30/01/2012
thats fine but let us have these questions addressed and debated. the one thing about your views is that you discuss and debate unlike some who just abuse. it is that type who are going to cause problems in the coming 2 years.
19:18 on 30/01/2012
I think enough hot air has been spent on the Scottish Referendem Question. Let them have it.
There are far more important things going on in the world to worry about.
11:17 on 30/01/2012
Scottish independence is not a matter for the scots alone. Under the UK blanket many UK investments were moved north of the border and, since these remain UK investments, should be moved south in the event the split goes through.

But Scotland is a region and not a country and to allow this split to go through would be like saying that the South East was going to seek independance because it is the wealthiest part of the UK.

Every car has component parts and to omit one part would prevent the car from functioning. Hence the Scots should be given a wake-up call by being told what they would lose should the elect independence.
11:56 on 30/01/2012
The UN charter, disagrees with you

"CHAPTER XI: DECLARATION REGARDING NON-SELF-GOVERNING TERRITORIES
Article 73

Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of these territories, and, to this end:

to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;
to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspirations of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstances of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement;. . . "
http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter11.shtml
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12:09 on 30/01/2012
"Scottish independen­ce is not a matter for the scots alone."
Wrong. International law, the UN Charter say otherwise.

Scotland pays its share (more than its share actually) of UK taxes. All UK investment in Scotland will remain. All functins carried out in Scotland for the UK will move. All Scottish functions of the UK carried out in other parts of the union will return to Scotland.

Scotland is a country. Your demeaning statement only serves to indicate your lack of knowledge. Nobody but the Scottish electorate have any rights in deciding Scotland's future.
11:13 on 30/01/2012
when are labour going to kick Ed Miliband out and elect harriet hamond - she appears to be the only one out the three major parties that knows what she is doing and has values. sorry. i forgot she would not get the union vote that is why she was asked not to stand last time. as for the rest of labour what did they do for any part of the uk apart from london when they had power. as for the lying person in charge of the country now i would trust a used car salesman first. all he can do is say it is all labours fault yet it was the banks thatr got us in to the REAL trouble and they all vote and support the tories. what a waste of space.
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Allyb999
11:10 on 30/01/2012
It is expected he will acknowledge Labour's defeat to the SNP last May. Well to be honest who cares if he acknowledges it or not, it has happened.
He is coming up from Westminster to tell us they want to make the UK a fairer, more just place? Funny for the decade plus when Labour was in power, they did nothing to make the UK fairer more just place. So now they are in opposition, why would we believe him?
01:49 on 31/01/2012
Want the truth? When the Red Clydesiders came on the scene the Wastemonster decided that Glasgow was getting too big for its boots. The agreed that it had to be stopped. At that time the most productive place in the UK was an area where the built all the UK steam engines and many for the outside World. The Clyde Shipbuilding also was huge earners, There was no way they were going to see the working class get ahead. The plan was to break up Glasgow. They built the New Towns and high rise hovels and made Glasgow the wost place in Europe.