Posted:  |  Updated: 06/08/12 15:33 BST

Has The London Olympics Undermined The Scottish Nationalists?

There has been an undeniable surge of patriotism and national pride since the start of the London Olympics less than a fortnight ago. But has the success of "Team GB" undermined the case for Scottish independence? Are we all now much happier living side by side inside the United Kingdom?

Below, Labour's Tom Harris, Member of Parliament for Glasgow South, debates the SNP's Humza Yousaf, Member of the Scottish Parliament for Glasgow.

Step
1

Pre-debate poll:

Tell us your opinion before the debate starts to set the starting line

The London Olympics Has Undermined The Scottish Nationalists

Agree - Thanks for voting! Please proceed to read the debate below

Please vote to proceed to the debate

Step
2

Who makes the better argument?

Tom Harris Labour MP for Glasgow South and Shadow Environment Minister

They started it! Well, they did...

Much tartan-tinged indignation has emerged among SNP ranks in the last few days. They claim, with that hurt, innocent look they've cultivated over the years, that they just can't understand why all these big Unionist bullies are being so horrid to them. Why try to make political politics out of the Olympics, guys? Let's just all celebrate the triumphs of Team GB, yeah? Peace and love, man...

Or something similar.

If only the likes of Pete Wishart, the Perthshire SNP MP, could have foreseen the enthusiasm with which even Scots have embraced the games. Perhaps then he and his colleagues wouldn't have embarked on their nine-year sneer back in 2003 when Tony Blair announced the government would back a London bid to bring the games here in 2012. When the whole country - yes, including Scotland - celebrated the success of the bid on 6 July 2005, Pete and his pals were grumpily describing London's winning bid as a triumph for the English capital only. Scotland, claimed Pete, would gain precisely "zilch" from the Olympics and would even end up subsidising the event (no doubt using "Scotland's oil"...).

To understand the SNP modus operandi, you really have to sit near them in the chamber of the House of Commons. Whenever any major debate is taking place, the SNP group leader, Angus Robertson, will sit and murmur loudly, not quite heckling, but not quite speaking either. No-one listens to him, but we all hear him, chuntering away, no doubt rehearsing all his newly acquired grievances alongside his more beloved long term ones. Or maybe he's just repeating bits of dialogue from the weekend omnibus of "River City". It's difficult to tell and no-one really cares. But that constant drip, drip of sneering negativity has been well employed in the SNP's campaign against British Olympic pride.

It went up a few gears when the First Minister himself, at the start of the Olympics, wished the best of luck to every member of Team GB... every member who was Scottish, that is. Never mind that many Scottish athletes would depend on their non-Scottish team mates to win a medal; what's the point of wishing one member in a four-person relay team luck? Alex could not bring himself to wish luck to the whole of the British team, only to those he christened (and I cringe even to write this) "Scolympians". Yes, I know.

This was a political error that was uncharacteristic. Salmond would normally be too astute to do something so clumsy and ungracious. What did he have to lose by being magnanimous and wishing the whole of Team GB the best of luck? This is, after all, a man who saw some political advantage in claiming (erroneously, it turned out) to be an "anglophile".

The gaffe is even more unusual when you consider that Salmond's desperation to see a bounce in the polls for independence has forced him to reassure Unionist voters that "Great Britain" will still be around even after we split from the rest of the country. We'll still have the Queen, the pound, Nato, Trident, the BBC... We're all waiting for him to say that only by voting for independence can the Union be saved.

So when the whole of Scotland was cheering on Jessica Ennis, Greg Rutherford and Mo Farah, Salmond was, presumably, regarding their medal-winning achievements as no more notable than those of "other" "foreign" teams.

Cue Unionist (ie, my) criticism. And suddenly the more enlightened (always a subjective term when discussing nationalism) members of the SNP were using every opportunity to wish the whole of Team GB well, and castigating us for daring to criticise the First Minister and trying to turn the Olympics into a political football, etc. They obviously realised that Salmond had erred and are frantically trying to shore up their claim to be progressive and modern.

It's all good fun for those of us who miss politics when sport takes over the airwaves. Will the games have any affect on support for the SNP or independence? In the short term, maybe, but not significantly. In the long term, not at all. And that's at least partly because the SNP being ungracious, sneering and negative is hardly news to Scots, even to those who vote for them.

Tom Harris is Labour's MP for Glasgow South and Shadow Environment Minister.

Humza Yousaf Member of Scottish Parliament

By any measure the level of home support for Team GB athletes has been astronomical, even watching on my TV in the living room the noise from Olympic Park, the Velodrome or the Aquatic Centre has been deafening.

There seems to be a collective spring in the nation's step which is rubbing off onto our heroic sports men and women with GB now sitting third in the medals table. Incidentally, it is also our Scottish athletes' best showing in almost a hundred years with our sports men and women notching up nine medals.

However, in the midst of all this collective euphoria, there seems to be politicians out there hell-bent on ruining the Olympic experience for all of us.

"Never forget, small minded nationalists are out to destroy Team GB!" came the apocalyptic tweet from failed Scottish Tory leadership candidate Murdo Fraser after Andy Murray's sensational thrashing of Roger Federer to claim Olympic gold on Sunday. Similar tweets have been commonplace amongst anti-independence politicians and commentators over the last week.

The truth is that London 2012 will not swing the referendum on Scottish Independence one jot. I am sure those who are passionately committed to remaining as part of the United Kingdom and those who vociferously believe in independence for Scotland will remain staunchly entrenched in their respective positions regardless of how many medals we chalk up. However, the undecideds, who may well hold the key in the referendum battle, are canny enough to know the debate is much bigger than what colour of kit Andy Murray wears.

That is why the latest poll, which came out during the Olympics and after the Diamond Jubilee celebrations, showed support for the SNP had risen 2% from our historic landslide victory in May 2011.

The vast majority of people understand that independence isn't, as our opponents incorrectly assert, about flag-waving, kilt-wearing or shortbread-eating romanticised Braveheart nationalism.

In fact those who believe in independence for Scotland, including Alex Salmond himself, have been saying for years that our cause is not about flags or anthems but fairness and compassion.

The referendum that will take place in 2014 is a referendum about whether we want to have the full powers to create jobs for our children, whether or not we want to rid ourselves of the obscenity of nuclear weapons or whether or not we should have the powers to create a welfare system that pays for work and doesn't harm the most disadvantaged in our communities.

Fundamentally, our premise is very simple, we believe in independence because we think every decision about Scotland should be made by those who care the most about the interests of our nation, which by definition is the people of Scotland.

So there is no contradiction in cheering on Ennis, Hoy or Farrah, as I have done over the last week and yet believing in Scotland's ability to completely run her own affairs, just as she has been doing in-part, since the advent of the Scottish Parliament.

Just as Murray trained in Spain with Rafa Nadal to perfect his tennis skills, I see no reason why Scottish athletes, in an independent Scotland, couldn't train in whatever city in the world that helps them progress in their chosen sporting field - be that within or outside of the UK.

The discussion on Scottish independence has a long way to go, but politicians of all hues have a responsibility to raise the level of debate. Arguing over whether or not Andy Murray's lips were moving during God Save the Queen is frankly pathetic. As a 27 year old, perhaps it is unusual for me to tell other politicians this - but guys grow up, get a grip and let us enjoy the Olympic Games in peace!

Humza Yousaf is the SNP's Member of the Scottish Parliament for Glasgow.

Step
3

POST DEBATE POLL

Did one of the arguments change your mind?

The London Olympics Has Undermined The Scottish Nationalists

VIEW DEBATE ROUND 1 RESULTS

Agree - Thanks for voting again! Here are the results:

Before

After

moreless AgreeDisagreeUndecided

Tom HarrisHumza YousafNeither argumenthas changed the most minds

FOLLOW UK POLITICS

There has been an undeniable surge of patriotism and national pride since the start of the London Olympics less than a fortnight ago. But has the success of "Team GB" undermined the case for Scottish ...
There has been an undeniable surge of patriotism and national pride since the start of the London Olympics less than a fortnight ago. But has the success of "Team GB" undermined the case for Scottish ...
Filed by Luke McGee  | 
 
 
  • Comments
  • 251
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Post Comment Preview Comment
To reply to a Comment: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to.
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3  Next ›  Last »  (3 total)
10:42 AM on 08/13/2012
Salmon has lost his support,are now his lost his bottle,secret talks for devo-max question on ballot paper,to save his face,his job and his high salary.
That sums up just another politicion.
This comment has been removed.
07:32 PM on 08/12/2012
It's a good job salmond did run away to the hills of Scotland while the Olmpics are on,what a bashing his been getting,Gay's,polls,NATO and the fantastic GB team at the Olympics.
3rd in the medal table,and those fans and the TV audiences what a time we have had.
Ps It's been that good,can't salmond stay away?
08:36 PM on 08/09/2012
Does anyone know whether the snp are staying in NATO or not
They are making me dizzy,in out in out.
I dont know why i asked that question,they have 29% of the population at the moment behind them,but they are disappearing daily.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jimbraid1
08:37 PM on 08/10/2012
Keep up RedFred, latest poll in Scotland shows 47 % support for the Independence Yes vote and 53 % for the No vote, but still 2 years to go. by the way your beloved Labour party in Scotland has 29% support. The SNP's policy on NATO is that they wish to be part of it but not if it means having Trident in the Clyde and other nuclear facilities, NATO will have its conditions of course, lots of negotiations to take place yet, so watch this space. But as I said at the start - do keep up.
11:37 PM on 08/10/2012
KEEP UP TO DATE,This is a saying of your's.
If you was at the Edinburgh Fringe last night,you will know they done a straw poll on Independence.
The result was, only 1.3% that took part,voted for Independence.
Keep up to date,what ever poll you look at,support for independence is melting faster polar caps.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rectify
06:04 PM on 08/09/2012
Did you see that wee lassie win the olympic flyweight title: for the benefit of you Nationalists that is just another instance of the games that inspires me & makes me proud to be British
02:09 PM on 08/08/2012
Going simply on the number of Scots winning Olympic medals, Scotland would be easily inside the top ten on the medals chart.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rectify
10:17 AM on 08/09/2012
Yes & as Britsh we are the 3rd greatest olympic nation in the world thanks to the efforts of the Scots, English, Welsh & Northern Irish athletes all standing united as one under the Union jack.
This comment has been removed.
12:40 PM on 08/09/2012
If winning medals is your only goal in life, then why don't we all sign up to be a new province of China? Then we'll have over 40 medals!

Or perhaps you're hesitant to let a foreign power with very different views dictate future
08:24 PM on 08/09/2012
Sir Chris Hoy would never have won anything,without the backing of the support team.(chris own words)
Grow up and stop being so small mined,you sound like one of those snp republicans,that used to be popular.
02:26 PM on 08/12/2012
Out of 200+ nations taking part in London2012 Scotland is anything but too wee too stupid or too poor to represent herself if number of medals won is anything to go by.

As for being better as part of Team GBR, it is not so long ago that the British olympic team struggled to even win one Gold medal and were ranked outside the top 30. Lest we get carried away with our current success.

Are you suggesting that Scots would uniquely in the world be incapable of organising and running their own elite sports?
Jamaica is less successful in sport than Scotland, as is New Zealand, although both have dominated in their own fields with less resources than Scotland currently enjoys.

btw what part of "Going simply on the number of Scots winning Olympic medals, Scotland would be easily inside the top ten on the medals chart.” implies any kind of republican leanings?
Her Grace Queen Elizabeth, queen of Scots would be the constitutional monarch of an SNP led independent Scotland, according to their published papers.
Your assertion is utter b*ll*cks.

On a personal note, I do confess to feeling a bit uneasy hearing the words of our national anthem, asking God to save 'our' Queen, why is she still needing saved and from who, or what, exactly?
Something a shade more positive and less defferential to inherited status might sit better with a modern democratic state trying to set an example for others to imitate.
02:36 PM on 08/12/2012
Only 16 years ago at Atlanta USA1996, Redgrave and Pincent won Team GBR's solitary Olympic gold medal, for those with short memories.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
10:39 AM on 08/08/2012
We live in a world of global economics, corporations and international politics have made national borders almost redundant. At a time when more and more "power" is being transferred to Brussels, will Scottish Independence really make any difference to the daily lives of scotland? (my comments are not an ant-independence statement btw before I start getting a ton of anti-English comments)
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
11:51 AM on 08/08/2012
As an Englishman I’m all for Scottish independence. And as for Salmond, he is leader of the SNP and Scottish First Minister…fair enough. My big problem is all the assumptions he’s making about what Scotland will get after secession if it happens. He seems to think he will get everything he wants from the UK while lumbering us with all the cr*p. This will not be allowed to happen.

Scottish nationalists are fond of saying independence is a fundamental matter of principle. Good, in that case they will want to stand on their own two feet from day one. They will also be taking their fair share of the UK national debt and all the bail-out costs of the Scottish banks.

Regarding your comment on the EU, Salmond has ruled out joining the Euro in the short term (he couldn't anyway under Eurozone rules). Any sterling currency union must not involve any transfer of costs or risks to the UK...Salmond might not like all the conditions that the UK will insist on!

The UK will still have spending cuts to contend with in 2015 and the British people will not tolerate any deal which smacks of subsidising Scotland. We should work together amicably and co-operate in our mutual interests but again, that does not mean shifting significant costs or risks from Scotland to the UK.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
12:50 PM on 08/08/2012
My comment was more of an open question. Since I am not Scottish I guess it makes my views redundant. But on a purely practical level, its in my nature to want to know "more" you know read the "small print" I would want to know things like, would i have more (or less) money, would it effect the cost of living, will my home drop in value, is my job at risk, etc. But being outside of Scotland, yes i have concerns that linking a Scottish pound to UK sterling could affect the value of the currency, should scotland hit any bumps along the way in a post-UK nation which are inevitable, they would have a knock on effect of the wider economy, and as you know, whatever effects the economy effects the currency
10:59 PM on 08/08/2012
I'm sure we'll happily take our share of the debt, as well as our share of the assets.

But that's over-simplifying things a bit isn't it. Assets and liabilities will need to be balanced and shared this may mean one party taking a greater share of the liabilities but retaining a greater share of the assets too.

Trident is a good example, the Scots Parliament don't want it, Westminster does. It is however a massive asset (financially speaking), there's horse-trading to be done.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jimbraid1
12:34 PM on 08/09/2012
I am Scots SGill but you wont get any anti English comments from me. The Scots who believe in Independence simply want to TOTALLY control their own affairs, not be controlled from London. Of course we accept that their will be teething problems and of course we accept that we have to pay our share of any applicable debts, as well as expect our applicable share of UK assets. It would be in neither Englands or Scotlands interests to become bad neighbours of eachother, our ties are too strong for that, we have fought together in too many wars.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
10:34 AM on 08/08/2012
A lot of anti-English sentiment here presumably from some of the scots. If the comments were directed towards any other group of society, they would be considered racist, sexist or homophobic. But i guess if you are English its ok?
12:42 PM on 08/09/2012
Where? Haven't seen one comment! This debate isn't anti- anything
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rectify
05:51 PM on 08/09/2012
Well for a start one of your cohorts stated on an Irish forum (That was debating how to cement the peace process ) that it is quite ok for the Irish to Hate the English & admited quite openly he is Anti-British. If you want to know who it was il tell you it was Stephan 67
photo
Alec Falconer
God save our queen.
11:35 PM on 08/15/2012
You are right i am Scottish and i do not have a problem with England.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
12:56 AM on 08/16/2012
The first number one question i would ask is "how much is it going to cost" 
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
10:31 AM on 08/08/2012
For the SNP and Alex Salmond in particular, Nationalism is nothing more than personal ambition. A self deluding fool who just wants to be called "Prime Minister" or "Scottish President" Who spends more time panering to the Donald Trumps and Rupert Murdochs of the world
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
stephan67
Eternity and a day
10:35 AM on 08/08/2012
The Scots voted for him . This means they like his political ideas.Write something that makes sense .
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
10:47 AM on 08/08/2012
They voted for HIM? I thought they voted for the SNP. My comments do make sense. Just because you dont agree it doesn't mean I am wrong. Salmond is nothing more than a narcissistic career politician 
02:20 PM on 08/08/2012
Scots didn't "vote" for him at all. Like his counterpart in the HOC he's nominated by other politicians.
He is an MSP because he 'won' a seat somewhere but because of low turn outs at elections he, like many other politicians, was probably elected by a majority of a minority. Once elected he was chosen by the other elected msps to be their "leader" ie First Minister.
Hope that makes sense to you.
01:07 PM on 08/08/2012
WOW! Such incredible lack of knowledge. TheTrump fiasco was LoonyLondonLabour's Lord McConnell project, who as leader of a too wee, poor, stupid Scottish executive took Trump on tax paid helicopter ride to see where this Disney-golf-land was to be built. Salmond was simply landed with the project. I further fail to admire this belief that Scots will somehow reverse the results of the 1979 & 1997 referendums and the 2007 Scottish elections, the 2009 EU elections and the 2011 Scottish elections where Scots said they don't want to be ruled from foreign London. Better brace yourselves for the empire shrinking further as Nationalism, as 'paraded at London Olympics' is proven to be about far more than personal ambitions.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
01:09 PM on 08/08/2012
With a comment like that, im surprised you dont have a swastika for your avatar
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
04:20 PM on 08/08/2012
Why do we need to brace ourselves? Many of us in the rest of the UK are all for Scottish independence. In fact I hope it happens because in the event of a No vote this will fester on for years. Please vote Yes so we can put it to bed and get on with more important issues. And by the way, your Mr Salmond seems to think he will get everything he wants from the UK post-secession while lumbering us with all the cr*p. If that's the case he's living in a dream world…..
This comment has been removed.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
Vapula
Failure is not an option
07:37 AM on 08/08/2012
Many of my Friends are Scots. My grandfather was Scottish. I like the Scots. I think that together the UK is stronger when we are united but if the Scots don't want that then OK.
photo
Alec Falconer
God save our queen.
11:36 PM on 08/15/2012
A lot of us do not including me,God save our queen.
08:45 PM on 08/07/2012
As I'm fairly new on here, quick question. Fred is obviously a troll and not a very good one at that, trolls are meant to post things that get folk angry, but his posts are generally funny, a bit like watching a long legged pirate skipping. It's more in a point and laugh way as well.
Anyhoo, well done Sir Chris, outstanding achievement and very happy he will finish it all in Glasgow in two years time.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
stephan67
Eternity and a day
09:18 PM on 08/07/2012
100% correct.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SGillLondonUK
UNDIVIDED UNCONQUERED
10:27 AM on 08/08/2012
But how can you tell who is a troll, when you come onto a site where there is a lot of people talking sport, religion and politics, an angry response kinda goes with the landscape?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
stephan67
Eternity and a day
11:29 AM on 08/08/2012
Everybody here knows Fred .He's the champion of trolling .
06:37 PM on 08/07/2012
Well done Sir Chris,What a GB team.
06:34 PM on 08/07/2012
Can someone explain why the teams are identified as 'Great Britain' instead of 'United Kingdom'? Are the Northern Irish on their own?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jimbraid1
08:35 PM on 08/07/2012
Good point KOCT but the Northern Irish are certainly part of the GB team.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
Vapula
Failure is not an option
07:39 AM on 08/08/2012
Britain is England and Wales, Great Britain includes those two countries plus Scotland. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ...
02:07 PM on 08/08/2012
sorry pal but wishful thinking or what the guy down the pub said doesn't make it so.
Great Britain was a term given to the British Isles, derived from the Roman latin Britannia Major (go look it up) there were no home nations back then.
The 'other Britain' is the French bit we now call Brittany, Britannia Minor

Great Britain the political entity came about under James VI, and 1st of England, when he was invited to assume the English throne and became the king of 'Great Britain'. IE Scotland and England(including Wales)
HenryVIII subsumed the Welsh by military conquest into his Greater England, and Wales had ceased to be a seperate political state with any autonomy of its own from then until devolution 4 centuries later.

If you want to split hairs over it, you could argue that Great Britain in the Roman era
was actually a Greater Wales, since in those days the notion of an English or Scottish state was still almost another millenia into the future.

However I do agree that the UK is the kingdoms of England and Scotland, the principality of Wales plus the province of Northern Ireland.

A bit disrespectful to the Northern Irish of the nationalist persuasion to omit their part of the Union but the unionists mostly consider themselves British rather than Irish, and the nationalists won't thank you for including them in the Union.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
stephan67
Eternity and a day
12:34 PM on 08/07/2012
The Scots live in a state where they are a small minority (~ 8% ). The capital of this state is the English capital ,and the English are the 90 % of the population. In 1900 the English were 30Million .now they are 55 million. The Scots were 4 million ,now they are 5 million .I understand that they feel unwell in this Union.
This comment has been removed.
02:01 PM on 08/07/2012
"they feel unwell" Patronising tosh.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
02:38 PM on 08/07/2012
I’m afraid stephan67 is getting a reputation for talking tosh, patronising and otherwise!
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
12:18 PM on 08/07/2012
Shurely it's a bit early to be saying the Olympics was a blow to Scottish Nationalism because the true ramifications of the promises of what the Olympics was mweant to achieve rejuvination wise wont be known for at least a year down the line? If all the rejuvination promises flop then this could be a great boost for Scottish Independance instead. I think the truth is Westminster are desperatly trying to spin any current success before the post Olympic rejuvination promises all backfire.

I'm Catalan from Barcelona and the Spanish government in Madrid handled the Barcelona Olympics a lot cleverer then Westminster did. The idea was to hold the Olympics in Barcelona capital of the Independance aspiring region of Catalunya, spend a fortune on rejuvination projects and hopefully buy Catalan votes for staying in Spain. The stakes were incredibly high because if Spain goofed it would have lost the already Anti Madrid Anti Spanish region of Catalunya. If Westminster had the same brains it would have done everything in its power to get the Olympics in Glasgow or Edinburgh to try the same tactics to undermine the SNP by trying to buy Scottish hearts and minds through rejuvination schemes. Instead they chose London which is more like endorsing the SNP
06:47 AM on 08/08/2012
Edinburgh wouldn't want the summer olympics - we have the festival at that time of year.

It's bad enough dodging tourists for that let alone trying to add more for sporting events. Glasgow has the commonwealth games in 2014 (though we compete in that separately) and is going for the Youth Olympics in 2018. So if Westminster is smart it will make sure that it throws its full weight behind supporting those and not let Eck grandstand.
08:00 AM on 08/11/2012
But summer in Scotland is nothing like summer in Barcelona.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
08:56 AM on 08/11/2012
iserlohn
Appologies my mistake, I didn't realise they still had Summers in Scotland. As I thought they had long ago been hunted to extinction there? With the last recorded Scottish Summer being shot dead by a holiday making Englishman in 1743?