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The Scottish Independence Debate Isn't About Olympic Gold, It's About Democracy

Posted: 10/09/2012 00:00

During the hazy, early hours of the morning in a west end pub, a friend of mine told me that he had learned to 'never trust nationalism.' On the face of it he had a point; there are few ideological strands that have unleashed as much needless suffering on the world as nationalism. However, context is everything, and in this case we weren't discussing far and distant wars or an age of empires, rather we were discussing the upcoming referendum on Scottish independence.

Unlike nationalist movements from around the world, the Scottish one is not about armed struggle or romantic insurrection. The case for Scottish independence is a very rational one and has nothing to do with fighting oppression or tyranny. Instead the debate is a pragmatic one about decentralisation and which government should be making the key decisions that impact upon Scottish people.

As a London-dwelling Scot I've been living right in the heart of the recent renaissance of Britishness which has taken over the capital. I've seen the Olympic flame passing through our streets and cheered in awe as Mo Farah, Andy Murray, Bradley Wiggins and Chris Hoy proudly lifted their gold medals to the rhythms and strains of God Save the Queen. If referendums were fought on pomp, pageantry and sporting glory alone then it would already be game, set and match to the unionists. This triumphant mood was captured by a number of high profile commentators, and during the flurry of euphoria that followed the games there were an endless array of articles that proclaimed a great new dawn for the unionist cause and suggested that the referendum, still two years away, had become a foregone conclusion.

What the talking heads are missing is that the vote will have little, if anything, to do with the sporting prowess of British athletes. If anybody really believes that the flags worn by Andy Murray or Chris Hoy are as important as who is responsible for running the welfare state or the military budgets then they are mistaken. By the time that the referendum comes along Scots will have endured more than four years of a government who they didn't vote for, the unpopular austerity agenda will still be government policy, and for many outside London the Olympics will have become little more than a pleasant memory with no real legacy.

As for the referendum campaigns themselves, they are increasingly becoming more polarised as Salmond and Cameron have both suggested they are nearing an agreement on what will actually appear on the ballot paper, with reports suggesting there will only be one question: Yes or No to an independent Scotland. This would be the start of a new stage of the process, as every single poll has shown that Scots want more powers, and with a second question off the agenda both sides will have to battle to win the hearts, minds and votes of those who are undecided on the issue of full political independence. Regardless of the outcome there will be change, whether it comes in the form of a 'YES' vote or in the promise of greater powers that unionist politicians would almost certainly need to make in order to win.

There are historical reasons to believe that, like the rest of the country, Scots have benefited from the union, but there are very few to suggest that this will continue. As I wrote in a recent article, the threads that once held the union together have become less and less, and the polarisation of governments and voting patterns north and south of the border has only become more pronounced. There are definitely strong cultural bonds between the people of all the islands that make up the UK, and these will continue regardless of the outcome. However, those who argue for the current setup will find themselves in the difficult position of having to defend a system that allows a government with little accountability to set the budget for a country that has voted against them. The situation is hardly unique, in fact the Scottish electorate has voted against British governments in nine elections since 1945. Devolution may have gone some way to addressing this democratic deficit, but many feel that it doesn't go far enough.

Indeed, support for the union itself tends to be soft and reactive rather than dogmatic. This is supported by a now notorious survey from ScotCen which found that two thirds of Scots would vote for independence if it meant that they would be £500 a year better off. What this survey shows is that Scots are likely to take a pragmatic decision rather than an ideological one.

Despite this, in in order to win the 'YES' campaign will need to be the biggest, broadest, most inspiring and best organised campaign ever seen anywhere in Britain. Equally, the pro-union campaign is stuck in a corner in which it will either need to go even more negative and hope that it works, or they will need to present a positive and inclusive image that concretely explains why they believe that Scots are benefiting from the status quo.

There are a number of outstanding questions about independence; what would happen to the debt? What would happen to the nuclear weapons? Would Scotland be given automatic EU membership? These are all big questions, but they feel like the discussions that surround a divorce rather than the ones that get asked when renewing vows.

 

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During the hazy, early hours of the morning in a west end pub, a friend of mine told me that he had learned to 'never trust nationalism.' On the face of it he had a point; there are few ideological st...
During the hazy, early hours of the morning in a west end pub, a friend of mine told me that he had learned to 'never trust nationalism.' On the face of it he had a point; there are few ideological st...
 
 
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05:16 PM on 09/12/2012
I'm a Scot, one of those deluded, stupid, Braveheart Scots who believe Mel Gibson singlehandedly saved Scotland - here's the thing what we are actually talking about is Scotland withdrawing from the 1707 Treaty of Union. Even in the batty non-existent world of the UK 'constitution' the courts have stated that sovereignty of Scotland is limited by the considered will of the Scottish people, further Westminster has no powers to alter, amend, change or set aside the 1707 Union Treaty as without this Treaty the UK Parliament at Westminster has no legal status. The Scots vote to withdraw in 2014, the Union is ended. Westminster reverts to being the sovereign parliament of England and Wales.

To Mr Cavanagh all I can say is in Scotland, the debate is not about Salmond as the SNP input into the cross party 'Yes' campaign is actually run by Ms Sturgeon anyway. The debate is about the sort of Scotland we wish to leave future generations, a Scotland as far away from the neo-liberal hell of the three Tory Parties at Westminster as you can wish to imagine. Westminster's answer? To get their press pals to run endless deep fried Mars Bar style stories. a level of debate we just can not be bothered going down to.
09:57 PM on 09/11/2012
It's a shame salmond cant be honest and open with the Scottish public.
There are for's and against in any argument,and all sides should be heard,not just salmond.
The question at the end of the day is,Does Scotland feel stronger and safer on their own,or being a part of the UK.
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Gilbert McLardy
11:25 PM on 10/30/2012
Cavanagh.
That's exactly the big problem here in Scotland, Salmond gets very little media coverage compared to your new found buddy's in London, you smack of the Scottish Labour MPs in the Westminster, I am alright Jake, looking after your own bank balance.
06:26 PM on 09/11/2012
I wouldn't trouble yourself either way Andrew, as a London-dwelling Scot you won't even get a vote!
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battleofalma
12:02 PM on 09/11/2012
Scottish independence is romantic nonsense I'm afraid, in the way that most dreams of independent nationhood are irrelevant in this era.
The Salmond argument is based on one thing; oil (Ok, and his massive ego and the knowledge that he'll be dead when someone else has to clean up the mess he made).
He claims that North Sea oil revenues (an industry developed by English capital and English companies btw) offsets the fact that Scotland is a net-beneficiary of UK government public spending.
This might be true now, but when the oil runs out? Scotland is not going to be Norway, it's just not going to happen.

Before the Act of Union, Scotland was a minor-power, lurching from one disaster to the next in it's struggle for power with England. In fact, it's ill-fated attempt at becoming a colonial power was the pre-cursor to the union. As part of Great Britain, both countries benefited from the peace it established on this island, the combination of resources and culture and went on to dominate the world for a century afterwards.

It's a romantic idea, throwing off the shackles of the union imposed by the hated English oppressor (probably played by Benedict Cumberbatch or someone), but we haven't been oppressors for hundreds of years. Even when we WERE invading oppressors, we weren't much worse than the Scottish nobility were to their own people.
Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for.
06:04 PM on 09/12/2012
Ah the too wee, too poor, too stupid argument ...

In the ten years prior to the Union the Scottish economy was growing by 2.5% per annum according to the respect historian Micheal Lynch, the Scottish economy only went into free fall after the Union, then stagnated until the late 1700's.

The Darien disaster was stage managed by England and Spain, the only big loosers were the Lords in Scotland who mortgaged estates to invest in Darien and by 1707 were under pressure to pay back by the Burghs who held title to their mortgages.

The reason the Union happened was because the English Parliament wanted it to happen.

As to 'peace on this island'. There was the first Jacobite rising in 1715, the second in 1745, through out the 18th and early 19th century the Union killed and disenfranchised the people of Scotland through a process of ethnic cleansing that makes the Serbian actions in Yugoslavia look Mary Poppinsesque in comparison.

Currently the UK Treasury is reliant on Scottish exports for 40% of its positive foreign exchange balance. BP (a multinational) has just announced a massive new investment in the North Sea, Brent South changed hands for $1.75 billion earlier this year. This is before Scotland begins to maximise its wind, wave and tidal power assets and the engineering design, development and delivery economy already associated with this.

If there is anyone around here who believes in the 'Braveheart' view of Scotland, it is surely you.
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battleofalma
03:35 PM on 09/14/2012
"Stage managed"? C'mon, the Darien venture may have been hamstrung by a lack of cooperation from England and direct opposition from Spain, but that doesn't exactly mean that it wasn't a bloody stupid idea in the first place. Surely they knew the risks of venturing into direct competition with the English, Dutch, Spanish etc? The big losers were the Lords, who well, ran the country and were effectively government, so while it wasn't the average Scot's fault, when is any national disaster the average guy in the street's fault?

Hold on, and you're blithely writing off the Genocide of Bosniaks as trivial compared to the Highland Clearances?
Bosnian Muslims were intentionally targeted for who they were, not just the land they lived on, and intentionally murdered, not evicted.
Yes, the clearances was a form of ethnic cleansing, but instigated as much by Lowland Scots as well as the Duke of Sutherland (these clearances had already happened years before in England). You can't ascribe all persecution of Scots to the English, it's a convenient Nationalist narrative, but it's just not true. The Enlightened set of Edinburgh supported the clearances as part of modernisation.
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battleofalma
03:33 PM on 09/17/2012
Whoah, I was taking you seriously until you wrote off the murder of thousands of people as "Mary Poppinsesque".

A) Serbia conducted a campaign of ethnic cleansing designed to punish Bosniaks and Albanians. This meant death and rape camps. Granted the evictions in the Clearances were in many cases a de-facto death-sentence, the motivations were very different. This was heartless "enlightened" modernisation with no thought to human consequences, not an attempt to kill a race.

B) While the English Duke of Sutherland was the main offender, you can't discount the fact that the first clearances were ordered by Scots landowners, and that this was as much a Lowland action against the Highlands as an English action against the Scots. The English having already enacted the same clearances of the English countryside.

The clearances and dissolution of Highland clan culture was as much a priority of the Edinburgh Enlightenment set who wanted to modernise their country as it was of the English wishing to control it.

And to say that the Darien Scheme was "stage managed" by Spain and England is ridiculous. Surely the Scots knew the risks of venturing into direct colonial competition with the English, Dutch, Spanish and French? Sailing halfway across the world to a swamp in Panama was a stupid idea if it was clearly against the will of Spain; the strongest colonial power in the region, and relied on assistance from the English and the Dutch.
12:28 AM on 09/11/2012
The arguments for the union are so poor that only the power hungry mandarins or sycophants from London care to spout them. Maybe if Cameron thought things through a bit he would realise that the only way forward is to create new better bonds of union that benefited everyone but I think that's a bridge to far for the conservatives.
12:53 AM on 09/11/2012
Cameron bonding, for the Tories have problems understanding that there is a Central - Belt and Northern parts of England between Milton Keynes, and the Scottish Boarder.
01:20 AM on 09/11/2012
I think they would be surprised to find that life existed outside the M25
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Rectify
11:22 AM on 09/11/2012
Maybe if you thought things through you would realise that fair enough the tories only won 1 seat in the general election but you ignore the fact your lot only won 6 seats so you can hardly claim to speak for the scottish people. So on that basis the arguements for the Union cant be as poor as the SNPs arguements against the Union because it was a Unionist party who wiped the floor with the SNP in the gereral eclection. As far as the mickey mouse election is concerned where you managed get a majority only half the Scottish electorate bothered to turn up & vote. May I also correct you as well on your point that the arguements for the Union are not just put forward by people down south who like me are proud to be Brtish they are also put forward by the Scottish Unionists through the Scottish Unionists parties If you want to see a power hungry mandarin or Sycophant you need look no further than Salmond your own leader.
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09:35 PM on 09/10/2012
When Norway and Sweden seperated, nations and their economies were not part of a global financial network that is almost uncontrollable. As much as all nations like to think they control their own sovereignty, the truth is we are all so interdependent economically, militarily and politically that governments only tinker round the edges where world affair come into play.
The Czech Republic and Slovakia separation was simpler as there was no true historic connection. Czechoslovakia only came into being in 1918, as a result of the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which only existed for some 50 years itself.
The real practical issues are that the remainder of the UK and Scotland need to agree how the countries are separated if they do. Salmond has stated that Scotland would keep the pound, but would the then UK government and, perhaps more importantly, the major financial institutions think it prudent for them to allow this.
Would the future UK government even want to set up a defence pact between the two nations?
The UK has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Would any future government surrender an iota of its power to accommodate an Independent Scottish Nation?
There are many issues that don't seem to be discussed. The SNP needs to look closly at what it wants, might/will gain or lose. A yes vote will create nationalistic fervour in the other 3 nations. It isn't just Scotland who will then have an agenda and national self interests.
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Raymond Soltysek
11:05 PM on 09/10/2012
Why would Scotland want a seat on the repressive, undemocratic UN Security Council? It is a Cold War institution of decrepit nuclear powers - we would want no part of its hypocrisy, no part of snivelling after the UK's American masters and their interests.
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11:27 PM on 09/10/2012
You take the point too literally, it was part of a number of theoretical questions. The UN comment was merely an example within that.
No matter how positive anyone is about independence, there will be a scramble to protect national self interests. Both countries will want to hold on to everything it feels it benefits from. Where such a thing benefits both, do you really think either side will want to let go?
If anyone believes any politician isn't interested in political power, be that national or international, I would suggest they are wrong.
Having said all that, you are of course entirely entitled to your view of what the UN may or may not stand for or what it is. I'm just rather sceptical that you are able to speak for the entire Scottish nation as the "we" suggests. Alex Salmond does it as well and that seems as unlikely too.
07:17 PM on 09/10/2012
"the Scottish one is not about armed struggle or romantic insurrection" ... a somewhat naive statement.

Perhaps you might want to forget defence policy, the debt share or the EU membership and consider this: What may be the unwanted consequences if there is a very big turnout and the vote is split 52/48 in favour of independence...That's is not a recipe for national unity for a newly independent country - that is a recipe for an utter disaster. The historical lessons of nationalism and its mistakes and miscalculations are as relevant now as they were in the early 20th century; saying that this version of nationalism is rational while all the rest that ended in disaster were not rational is both a highly insulting misreading of history and dangerously naive.
08:56 PM on 09/10/2012
Call off the referendum in case democracy wins. Sweet Buddha, that's a new one.
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Mark B Robertson
10:46 PM on 09/10/2012
A vote of 52/48 in favour is called Independence.
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10:55 PM on 09/10/2012
A 52/48 split in favour is only independence if the terms of the referendum allow a simple majority. I've seen far too many constitutional referenda around the world to take that one for granted.
08:42 AM on 09/12/2012
No i think you'll find that is the aforementioned recipe for disaster. Earlier posters quoting the Velvet Revolution or the nordic splits overlook the rather obvious - support for these was overwhelming. Lets just consider that other 60/40 national identity split...somewhat nearer to home...with people of frankly the same temperament.  About 30 miles across the Irish sea. And before i hear howls of complaint that the Scots are a rational and careful nation - maybe in the learned circles in which you mix. However this is a country still riven with deep sectarianism and is still the most violent society in Europe. 
Recipe.For.Disaster
03:38 PM on 09/10/2012
My main concern is our defence policies. Our armies swear loyalty to the QUEEN. Not to the government. Does Salmond intend on making the Scottish service men break that vow? and if so, how does he propose to separate the thousands upon thousands of Englishmen and Scottish integrated in almost every single regiment?

Then there's the oil. The Oil in the north sea is owned by the rights of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. If Scotland separates itself from the United Kingdom then we, by law, no longer have any rights to that oil (as if the oil alone could support our economy anyway)

In these times of extreme toil. We should not separate, separation only weakens, it never strengthens. We need to unify and support our fellow Britons. Rather than leave them and let both them and ourselves fall. Yes there is faults in the British Government, but as a proud scot I always thought we fought these faults, not run away from them.

Besides most families in Scotland have many English relatives. How do we define who is Scottish and who would have to apply for a visa? Many of my friends are half Scottish half English, will they become dual nationalities or will they have to choose between England and Scotland.

We need to stop attacking and actually take a moment to pause and consider what Salmond is talking about here. He is proposing something that could lead the entire UK into an extremely volatile future.
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05:37 PM on 09/10/2012
Almost every point you try to make is wrong.
You miss the biggest point of all though. If Scotland votes YES the UK no longer exists.
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07:27 PM on 09/10/2012
Nah WLQ. England, Wales and NI could for example enter a new Union of the United Kingdom. The new Union Agreement could be drafted to create the new Union instantaneously upon the act of separation from Scotland coming into force. The new UK would then be adopted by the EU as the successor state to the old UK under a process of novation…job done. A few loose ends to amend things like the UK’s membership contributions etc could be tied up well in advance. I’m no lawyer but something like this seems eminently doable…
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Rectify
08:07 PM on 09/10/2012
You are wrong she is right in almost every point she makes because she highlights what is my main concerns if you lot get into power.
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02:40 PM on 09/10/2012
After the past 30-40 years of suffering imbecilic decisions concerning Britain by Wasteminster its no wonder Scotland wants self governance. After living there for ten years I can see the country going from strength to strength once they shrug off our political incompetents, its just a pity everywhere north of Birmingham cant choose who they wish to belong to as Scotland would get my vote, hopefully I'll have moved back north of the border within the next few months and the SNP will be in receipt of my own bid to escape the clutches of the Westminster parasites.
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jimbraid1
10:46 AM on 09/11/2012
And you would be very welcome to become an honorary Scot sop2.
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Ben Wilson
What's the story mourning Tories?
02:10 PM on 09/10/2012
Referring to your 4th to last para, may I point out the defense is simple, because those faults are universal, every constituency can argue to have the same issues, so at the end of the day the nationalists problems are all of our problems. And the problem with Salmond is that de-centralisation is not independance, nor will getting indepedance solve the problem, is Scotland to go back to clans, or is Salmonds centralised Scotland going to avoid all that?! He'll only create another London.
07:03 PM on 09/10/2012
"He'll only create another London."

Ben.
It's already there, it's called Edinburgh up here in Scotland.
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12:49 PM on 09/10/2012
A first rate piece Andrew, thank you. The last paragraph is spot on.
12:04 PM on 09/10/2012
Salmon is totally correct.
Scottish Independence is all about the future achievements that can be had by every Scot, and NOT about the individual medals gained by some during the Olympic - Games.

The Olympics movement exist through it sportsmen / women that spends 4 years in Training just for a few moments of Glory in Winning their Medals, whereas an Independence Vote for Scotland will be for ever and for everyday for everyone and NOT just for those individuals that personally seek their moments of Glory every 4 years.
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11:04 PM on 09/09/2012
I can't imagine an independent Scotland would want to go to the Euro. Would they retain their current Pound system somehow tied to the UK Pound to facilitate trade with the UK?

Also, control over North Sea oil off Scotland's coast could theoretically make an indepedent Scotland more fiscally solvent than one tied to the UK.

If it does come to a split (which I hope it doesn't), I hope it is handled as amicably as it was in the former Czechoslovakia.
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hearthammer
If left is right and right is wrong, decide!
11:20 AM on 09/10/2012
There are quite a few policy decisions to be made when independence comes.

The London fascisti want us to tell them what Scotland will be doing in 2015 when they themselves cannot even tell us what they'll be doing next week!

It's essential for Westminster that Scotland stays aboard the sinking union, and they'll do anything to ensure that end. Most of the time, they will rely on the hard of thinking to believe absolutely everything they tell them and repeat it ad infinitum. The problem for Westminster is that their lies have no basis in truth and can easily be disproved. Unfortunately, the people who take all these lies in are like fundie Xtains. No matter how much you disprove their lies, they will not change as they lack the intellectual capacity to admit they are wrong.

The other way of ensuring that the Westminster lies are propagated is to enure the BBC broadcasts them. Most people outside of Scotland (and a good proportion IN Scotland) trust the BBC implicitly and believe everything they say. When caught out though, the BBC is very good at burying their lies.

When Scotland achieves her independence, it will be in spite of all the black propaganda and lies. It will be in spite of the psuedo Scots working against us and will be a triumph for democracy.

I would commend our English friends to do the same. Let's face it, can you be any worse off going it alone?
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DirectProf
10:07 PM on 09/09/2012
With all due to respect to Mr Smith, I think that his friend is correct. I find these arguments in favor of Scottish independence about as specious as those that suggest because the American South didn't "vote" for the government that it got (or, in our case, a president), that it should secede again ... or that the North should've when W. was elected twice.

Why does no one want to compromise and work together any longer? There's precious little compelling evidence that an independent Scotland would be better than one as part of the UK, and the mania is being driven by dubious arguments at best. Ask Quebec how endless independence talk has helped them? Oh, wait, yah, many of the corporate headquarters that were based in Quebec left Montreal for Toronto ...
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Andrew Smith
10:17 PM on 09/09/2012
The point of the article is that since WW2 different political cultures have developed in Scotland, England and the rest of the UK and that needs to be reflected better in terms of parliamentary powers or full independnce. There is one Tory MP in the entire of Scotland (out of 59) therefore it seems unusual that they should be setting the key budgets and controling most of the levers of power in a country where they rarely get over 20% of the vote. My objection isn't that Torys are all bad people, but any system that allows that level of inconsistency needs to be reformed. In the article I don't make arguments for why Scotland would neccesaril be better off, but I do raise the question of what the benefits from the current union are.
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DirectProf
10:37 PM on 09/09/2012
Understood, and I actually do understand, that's why I mentioned the American situation as a parallel.  I mean, for goodness sakes, Mitt Romney doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hades of winning a state he was once governor of, that's how polarized things are over here.  But you don't hear agitation for secession ... well, other than from Texas Governor Rick Perry and many of us wish Texas would secede ... ;)  I'm merely saying as a Scottish-American myself (direct line back to Perth), I understand the romantic draw of it, but I just think it's a fundamentally bad, bad idea in the 21st century.  And I think your friend is right:  nationalism is a powder keg.
09:55 AM on 09/10/2012
How many times have the USA applied to rejoin the UK? Even with the huge amount of debt that the USA is in I still don't see any overtones being made to the UK about the USA rejoining the UK. The reason that the USA does not apply is because it is content with being independent; hopefully Scotland will go the same route as the USA. After all we are entitled to self-determination.