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Just What Exactly IS the Argument FOR Page 3?

Posted: 06/10/2012 00:00

I wasn't going to write about the Page 3 debate. Plenty of other brilliant female commentators have already dealt with the subject succinctly and thoroughly. Frankly to me the argument seems so overwhelmingly clear and simple that it only really needed to be explained once. But as I watched the articles on both sides of the debate pour in, read the hundreds of column inches and heard the question being contested on live radio and television, I was struck by something so extraordinary that I felt compelled to draw attention to it. I haven't heard a single argument for Page 3.

I have read the argument that the women protesting Page 3 have no right to do so because they are too educated, too "hysterical and shrill", too humourless, too bitter or rampant, even too clouded by their own jealousy to have a valid argument. All of these are examples of extreme misogyny and prejudice, (and it is worth a moment's pause to marvel at the fact that such an article, so full of outright prejudice and hatred should be published at all, when one imagines a similar piece with the issue of sex changed, say, to race) but none are actually arguments for Page 3.

I have heard the (similarly stereotypical and offensive) argument that the people who buy the Sun are from a 'different' demographic, concerned solely with basic needs like housing and putting food on the table; too busy with 'real' concerns to have the time to object to a little sexist sexual objectification with their breakfast. But this is not an argument for Page 3.

I watched with fascination as the former deputy editor of the Sun replied, stubbornly to almost every question on a Newsnight debate about the issue, that it wasn't worth arguing about at all, when there were far more important problems in the world to tackle. Even when host Emily Maitlis pointed out that this was a "cop out"; that he was avoiding the issue and that indeed, women like Harriet Harman, the MP opposite him do indeed campaign on those wider issues, he refused to be drawn. He stuck, rigidly, to the premise that the issue was simply not worthy of debate. But that is not an argument for Page 3.

I have listened to the suggestion that Page 3 is harmless, and those who don't like the idea should simply not buy the paper. I have read the similar argument that it has been there for so long that some people don't even notice it any more. I have seen the point made that most men have already seen pictures of naked women anyway and read the theories that women are objectified far worse elsewhere. But again, and sorry if this is starting to get repetitive, these are not arguments for Page 3.

I have heard several arguments about the rights of women to choose careers as glamour models, but even this, whilst a valid argument for the existence of top-shelf publications, does not begin to address the issue of whether these sexually objectifying images should appear in our most-read family newspaper. It is not an argument for Page 3.

What is interesting is that amongst the many pertinent and valid arguments that have been put forward against Page 3, some suffer from a lack of available scientific evidence to prove their direct relevance. This applies most notably to the connections drawn by MP and former equalities minister Lynne Featherstone between Page 3 and domestic violence, saying, "It's about the constant drip, drip of women being sexualised in the public space [which] has a great bearing on attitudes and domestic violence".

I have a similar problem solidly connecting the accounts collected by my Everyday Sexism Project to the debate. In the past six months alone, the project has received over 500 accounts (that's over 7% of all the experiences documented) pertaining to the groping, grabbing, touching, licking, ogling, or explicitly commenting on women's breasts. The reports strongly suggest a problem with accepted ideology in the public consciousness relating to women's breasts; who owns them, who has the right to touch them and who is entitled to judge and comment on them:

"I must've been about 14 when I was walking home from school one day and two young boys on bikes rode past me and one of them grabbed one of my breasts really hard as they cycled past. I was too shocked to do anything"

"My first experience of men commenting on my breasts was when I was 11-years-old...walking home from the corner shop after buying sweets"

"Everyday I'm walking down the street men stare at my breasts...one will yell: 'Look at the tits on that!'. That, like I'm not even a person but merely a display cabinet for large breasts."

"At my local pub a man thought it was okay to just walk up to me and grab hold of my breasts. On asking him what he thought he was doing he just replied 'they are huge'."

The accounts go on and on. No, I can't directly, scientifically link them to Page 3, any more than there is direct scientific evidence to link it to the two women a week killed in the UK as a result of intimate partner violence, the quarter of women who experience domestic violence, the hundreds of thousands of women sexually assaulted or raped each year. But if there is even a chance, a possibility, that a single ONE of these victims' attackers was influenced by the Page 3 mentality that women are objects, there for men's pleasure alone, then in the absence of a single argument for Page 3 I think we should all be signing that petition.

 

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I wasn't going to write about the Page 3 debate. Plenty of other brilliant female commentators have already dealt with the subject succinctly and thoroughly. Frankly to me the argument seems so overwh...
I wasn't going to write about the Page 3 debate. Plenty of other brilliant female commentators have already dealt with the subject succinctly and thoroughly. Frankly to me the argument seems so overwh...
 
 
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07:41 PM on 11/10/2012
Straightforward solution is to have a certification system as with films. If you violate your certification you get a fine, 3 fines and your license is revoked. Pretty simple. People can still buy the Sun if they'd like, but they have to be, say, 15.
09:15 AM on 11/08/2012
I couldn't really care less about what motivates women to be photographed topless/nude, but I do think it's sad that a certain stratum of masculinity spends his life pretending to 'enjoy' the page 3 content of various publications for the brain dead. I'd argue that the spotty mechanic sitting in the front of his battered white van surrounded by empty coke tins and discarded Macdonalds wrappers, is under as much social pressure to ape his peers and pretend to be in some way entertained by the sight of some attention seeking wannabe in his 'newspaper' as any of those taking part in this rather sad and tacky industry.
12:47 PM on 10/24/2012
There is just as much evidence (ie none at all) that page 3 prevents cancer. So if there is a chance that even one persons life could be saved by keeping page 3 then we should all sign that petition.
Taking the same rationale as this article, none of the arguments for page 3 are actually arguments for page 3, because I said so. So we are left with the argument that we should ban page three because some people don't like it. Unfortunately that is not a good enough reason to restrict the freedom of the press. Controlling the freedoms of others because of your own personal beliefs is exactly what has led to the worst excesses of organised religion, such as banning abortion and murdering apostates.
11:06 AM on 10/19/2012
Why does Page 3 need an "argument" for it? What's the "argument" for the comics, or the crossword, or the Sport section? Banning or even just disapproving of something that someone else does, demands a rationale, but the converse does not. If you don't like it, don't read it.
07:46 PM on 10/16/2012
Here is an argument FOR Page Three that you may find valid then:

Because the women who pose find it empowering.

There. If you are a femenist (which you sound like) you won't like the fact that some of us women on the outside word find it just as empowering that by merely taking off out clothes we can reduce men to drooling apes as it is to become chair of the board. Which is the reason I cannot stand modern femenism. Real femenism wanted to give women the choice and freedom to explore what empowered them. Modern femenists turn their noses up at women who want to shave their legs, wear nice clothes, perhaps don't want high profile careers or dare to feel empowered by their raw sexual energy. Hence why I am an equalitist, not a femenist. If a woman feels empowered by such things, I applaud her rather than shun her and assume she is "brainwashed" by our apparently misogynistic society.

As for its position in a national newspaper, well, quite frankly little boys need to learn about the birds and the bees at some point. And at the end of the day, they are just breasts. If you are truly offended by them, I suggest you turn over when the adverts come on as they appear in most adverts nowadays.
09:25 AM on 11/08/2012
A fairly tragic and feeble justification for self-debasement. I would have thought the 'femenist' position would be that no-one should have so few marketable skills that perpetuation of down market and sad stereotypes would be an attractive employment option.
Empowering ? Sadly not. that argument is as self deluding as are those oiks who feel they have to pretend to 'enjoy' viewing such garbage lest their traditionally cultivated, but fragile 'masculinity' be brought into question by equally insecure peers. I'm in my forties, and I've never known any male frinds be in the least interested in what appears to be low rent people posing in what are undeniably low rent newspapers - a bit of an inverse USP.
12:07 AM on 10/11/2012
I think Laura Bates is just jelous of what happens when she types her name into Google image search
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Thismortalcoil
Science is the poetry of reality
08:15 PM on 10/16/2012
Unlike you, Laura Bates can spell jealous, and I'm sure she's got a far more flattering Google profile than most people, Jack.
06:41 PM on 10/06/2012
Erm, because men like looking at breasts. Too simple? Then why is breast enlargement so popular, and what do you think bra's achieve? Both sexes know what breasts are all about and it's naive to pretend otherwise. They have evolved to be visual sexual signals, they don't need to be that large to feed infant humans, other apes aren't similarly endowed.
07:50 PM on 10/09/2012
That's not a valid argument. I like looking at big willies, but I wait until I'm in the privacy of my own home until I enjoy them using relevant material - I certainly don't insist the Daily Telegraph gives me a daily dose on page 10 to gratify my sexual inklings. And even if they did, I'd like to think I had enough respect for the boys and men in my society that I would not subject them to such material in public. Even though, presumably, big willies have evolved to be a visual sexual sign - seeing as other apes aren't similiarly endowed?
08:04 PM on 10/09/2012
The whole point about sexual signals is that they evolved with us, we didn't choose them, they were here and part of us long before we devolped prudery. Like it or not breasts are a way of assessing a potential mate, just women have their own things they look for.

You say you wait until you get home before looking at "willies" but this isn't quite true, next time you are with a woman and a man comes up to you look at her eyes, she will glance down at the mans crotch. Women deny they do this but if you are looking out for it and they don't know you are you will notice they always do and it's subliminal, just like men glancing at womens breasts (if we aren't careful). Its a subliminal evolutionary
sexual thing we do without realising. Check it out.
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Ben Wilson
What's the story mourning Tories?
03:03 PM on 10/06/2012
I've never liked the notion of page 3. The Sun is as sexist as it racist and homophobic, meaning that these days they've got too clever for anyone to prove it easily. But they are. Still page 3 was a cheap selling tactic, like a free lolly, except you can suck that.
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jessjesskk
Benevolent Zombie Power
10:13 AM on 10/06/2012
I think there is something fundamentally flawed in one line of argumentation about "sexualisation" and "objectification"...

The world is sexualized... has always been and will always be... and to "desexualize" it, it will require more - not less - of explosed flesh. To desensitize people about something you need to expose them more to it, not to avoid them being exposed to it...

The further argument for or against page 3 is, from my POV: Grow up... pictures of naked bodies are everywhere and, honestly, I would have strong doubts that for any girl or boy, page 3 was the first exposition to woman's breasts...
03:20 PM on 10/06/2012
But don't you think presenting women's bodies as news (in a newspaper) is sending a message that women want to be viewed only as sexual objects? It's like the current events are the things the men do, and women are just decorations. I partly agree with your point that exposed flesh can desexualise a society; but that's if the flesh is presented as nothing remarkable. In the Sun, a full page spread is given over EVERY DAY to point out how interesting it is to stare at naked breasts. Surely you can't say that's encouraging a de-sexualisation??
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jessjesskk
Benevolent Zombie Power
08:48 AM on 10/07/2012
i think it is de facto desexualising society. 50 years ago a pair of breasts was subject to a debate on tv... now who cares?
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08:57 AM on 10/06/2012
I think the best people to ask about what page three is for would be the women who appear on it.

It's pointless asking the people who produce or buy 'The Sun' though, they're barely sentient enough to tell the difference between night and day.
07:22 AM on 10/06/2012
I would have thought the 'argument' for Page 3 is it exists. It is provided as part of the package of entertainment offered by a publication that offers entertainment. The newspaper in question is a commercial concern. Successive editors have made the judgement that Page 3 should be part of its commercial offering for 30 years. It is not unlawful to publish topless photographs of young women and the newspaper judges that most of its readers either like the pictures, and this encourages them to buy the paper, or do not object to them enough to make them not buy the paper. That is the newspaper's argument. It's simple really. As for the readers, they presumably hold the view that the pictures are not offensive, degrading or harmful and those that enjoy them presumably feel pleasure rather than guilt or remorse. Ms Bates doesn't seem to allow the possibility that human beings can objectify other human beings while knowing at the same time that they are not only objects. However, she should believe it because it is a normal human capability. She is almost certainly the same herself. Maybe she feels guilty that she sometime objectifies people and wishes to sentimentalise these feelings. She has no need. She is allowed to objectify people, providing she stays within limits which have to do with respecting their autonomy as human beings.
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10:51 PM on 10/05/2012
Do you prefer all of your overweening legislation to be based on
"a chance, a possibility"? Or only the laws whose weight you
expect to fall on someone else?
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07:34 PM on 10/05/2012
I just wanted to add that during the last 20 years I have been groped and whistled at by women on several occasions - and no I am not incredibly dashing
01:14 AM on 10/06/2012
Thank you. Some women think that us men are treated so great yet they treat some of us in the same way!
03:29 PM on 10/06/2012
During the last 14 years (since I was 11) I have experienced at least one degrading comment or unwanted sexual touch per month. Every month. Both genders are capable of bad behaviour but it seems that men are encouraged to do so much more than women are.