The United Kingdom, like all states, is an artificial construct. For some its symbol is the bulldog. The strange thing about the bulldog is that it would die out as a breed if left to its own devices. This is because their heads are so big that the vast majority of them have to be born by cesarean section. Therefore, because of its bigheadedness, it relies on a form of artificial selection to continue, and this makes it a great symbol for the UK.
The idea put forward by Harry Mulligan recently, that the Scottish people are being fed "ill-thought-out patriotism", is exactly correct. However, the ill-thought-out patriotism that they are being fed is coming from those who would keep the UK as one state.
The fact that Scottish independence movement continues to exist and strengthen in the face of an overtly hostile media shows that the motives for it are not confined to a narrow patriotism.
The British media is controlled from London and reflects London's views quite accurately. The corollary of this is that there are several mistakes that people make when they look at the upcoming referendum for Scottish Independence. Mulligan's article yesterday made a good few of them. I'd like to go through them here if I may.
The first and most common is to conflate the Scottish Independence movement with the Scottish National Party. This is done for a variety of reasons and the primary one is laziness. The SNP now have a majority in the Scottish Parliament but polls indicate that in the arena of an independent Scotland many people would be likely to vote for other parties. I am a member of no party but an independence supporter and there are many thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, like me. Also, other parties in Scotland support independence, such as the Scottish Green Party.
Secondly, using the term "Tartan Tories" to describe the SNP is an old insult and really has no relevance. Maybe it has passed many people by that the SNP have consistently protected social provisions more than the two main UK parties. For example, in England the Tories (and Labour before them) have been inflicting death by a 1000 cuts on the National Health Service whereas in Scotland the Scottish Parliament has protected it. In England and Wales free university education is gone whilst it has been kept in Scotland. It is the Scottish parliament that is protecting these things and more, and London does not look kindly on it.
Another thing unionists often like to talk of is the Second World War (strangely, they often do it at the same time as criticizing independence supporters of harking back to history). They use WW2 as a rallying point - describing how everyone joined together to defeat the forces of fascism and this is then given as an important reason for keeping the union. Leaving aside the fact that Scots were a 3rd of the UK's dead in that war, and that with a 9th of the population, what would prevent an independent Scotland joining with whichever coalition was fighting such a threat?
Furthermore, if the UK's military ventures are destined to be, to use his phrase, "ill-thought-out" economic imperialist ventures into the middle-east - wouldn't Scotland be better off out of it?
And this is the crux of it. Scottish Independence is the only progressive game in town. It would alleviate the democratic deficit that people all over the (dis)United Kingdom suffer from whereby if England votes Conservative then Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland get a government they didn't vote for. It would solve the problem of the West Lothian question (on certain issues Scottish Members of Parliament can vote on English issues but not vice versa) which is a source of annoyance for many in England.
With independence, Scotland could keep its health service, its free education and not get involved in modern imperialist ventures. For me and many others, that short but by no means complete list, is far more important than Britpop, the upcoming Olympics or any historical considerations.
Finally, when Mulligan says "Do we really want to undo this world-beating force in favour of a selfish, scots-centric view of the world" he hoists himself with his own petard. This is "ill-thought-out patriotism" at is finest. It says that we should forget about social provisions and concentrate on being a "world beating force". That's very British-centric isn't it? "WE are going to beat YOU" it says. False assertions such as "Shame on these Nationalists who argue we would be better off alone. Its simply not true and its not the point anyway. Britain is the 'crème de la crème'" speak of the misplaced arrogance of a dying state that lost an empire and is feverishly clutching at straws.
The unionists are trying to blow some life into the dying embers of the UK and unfortunately for them, all that they are producing is hot air.
Compare and contrast with the British political class. Andrews Neil recently pointed out that the path to being an MP is increasingly narrow- attend a "good" university (one where you get "connections") become an unpaid "intern" working for an MP (or BoJo) while your family subs you to live in London, get a job in a think tank or working for the party machine, get a nomination......and Labour is as much a middle-class career machine as the others. No wonder alienation among young people from formal politics is so high.
For the moment the SNP appears to be different. The prospect of creating a new country has captured some young people's imagination. It would be easy for the SNP to blow it, but I am cautiously optimistic that this vital element and all its energy will carry us through to independence and into the reconstruction of society that must follow.
non bigoted (ahem) and as slim and lithe as those Scandinavians that Mr Salmond is desperately trying to claim kinship with, and wasn't Scotland found to be the most violent country in the western world?. We never hear of any of this from the Scottish nationalists, it's all peace, sophistication, urbanity and general loveliness and all the nasty things lurk south of the border...
..mentioning Scandinavia, there's a movement gaining pace there for unification of the Scandinavian countries based on their common culture, geography, history and languages which are rather similar. This shows Scottish independence up to be a regressive (NOT progressive) primitive, Serbo-Croatian type of movement.
You're marching backwards not forwards.
I read Bobwaughs post and none of what you say applies to it. You’ve just recklessly projected your own narrow views on Scotland. And let’s look at your views. ‘Scots were the most ardent imperialists?’ Prove it.
The Scots may have contributed a far greater proportion of soldiers who died in British imperialist adventures, but that does not mean they were proponents, they were cannon fodder.
I can sum up your post thus. “You Scots think you’re so cool, well you’re not.“ How mature.
Are you alluding to Salmond’s comments regarding Scotland being a progressive force in British politics? Well the facts prove this to be true. It has become very clear over the past thirty years that Scotland and England do NOT share the same perspective on social issues. NHS prescription charges, funding of Education, care of the elderly, we’re worlds apart.
And the response south of the border is to somehow say these progressive policies are a form of scrounging? We voted a progressive Scottish government into power. If England wants what we have, vote someone in who will supply it.
I can sum up the difference between our nations outlooks. An imperial history has left the English believing they’re better than everyone else. Whereas the Scots believe they’re merely as GOOD AS everyone else.
That may not at first appear to be definitively different, but it really is.
Nationalists are not nationalists because we think that Scotland is perfect.If we did we'd want it to stay governed by the "enlightened" government in London.We want independence to sort these issues`out. Why do you think that the Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations, an umbrella of voluntary groups engaged with these social problems, has come out as an advocate for "devo max"? Because it is since devolution that you have seen real attempts to get to grips with issues such as sectarianism, alcohol abuse, smoking.....so if that can happen with limited powers, the logic is - let us have more! And that's how these young people see it.
Try reading the article again. You seem to have a fixed view of Scots as doomed to live in a basket case society due to some sort of essential flaw in our nature. The facts suggest we are more than capable of envisioning a better society - and realising it.
Labour, Lib-Dem and Tories north of the border have never been so out of touch with the will of the Scottish people. Instead of attacking Salmond, they SHOULD be addressing WHY we gave him a landslide victory. Except they won’t, because that would involve opening a can of worms they cannot bare to contemplate.
Scotland has clearly rejected Westminster as far as it can thus far, yet politicians from the other Scottish parties continue to peddle the Westminster line, somehow hoping they can whip us into line using an endless diatribe of fearful projections.
Why won’t they address the fundamental issue of how Westminster represents South East England and not Scotland? Because they don’t want to have that conversation. And as politicians whose ambition it is to SERVE at Westminster, we can never expect them to be honest with us. I simply do not trust a word any of them says.
Would you trust my advice on what to do if you already knew I had no interest in your success? Of course not. But that’s where Labour and the other parties find themselves. It’s because of THEIR blinkered view on this issue that the debate is often reduced to insults and fear mongering.
Bottom line, Westminster does not and never has represented the views of the Scottish people. That can only happen in an independent Scotland. If I’m wrong, prove it.
To answer the questions and arguments of Auchtermuchty, there is a central issue to add to the analysis. The issue of competent, trustworthy, efficient and effective government. This is the shift that will determine the success of the Scottish Independence movement. The core issue is the loss of reputation by central government - in complete contrast to the growing trust, respect and confidence in the SNP Government and the relatively better integrated, better managed and better performing government of Scotland.
It was at least understandable for some Unionist Scots to defer to Westminster, when that institution was genuinely a yardstick for high standards of democracy and government competence.
Now even that justification for Unionism has disappeared. The world has moved on, standards, methods and technologies have improved. Westmister has gone backwards. Old, antiquated, lumbering, dysfunctional, incompetent and latterly visibly corrupt. It is unique in the world for the unfortunate distinction of trying to manage massive levels of depth and detail for 55m plus citizens, all from one over-centralised legislature. Every other large population has States, Lander. Provinces, etc The stubborn determination to concentrate and hold power centrally, will kill the Union. And the sooner the better.
I suggest the logical follow up to this article is some seminal articles; speculating on how England can take advantage of the opportunity of Scottish Independence to regroup and begin a much needed new phase of renewal and prosperity.
Its the SNP policy to want Independence , surely they can explain to us what it means exactly ?
so far its Free health , Free Education and no Foreign Wars , and we are going to be the 3rd richest country in the World , and as well as running a massive state sector , and hundreds of thousands of state dependents , we are also going to have an OIl fund like Norway , where the money is sagely put away for a rainy day .
Are there any downsides to all this ? If we are going to be very rich , will w enot attract a swathe of immigration ? Scottish ex pats ? flock home to share the spoils ? If we are still in the EU , then we will have to let everybody in .
or are the Scots suddenly going to stop being dependent on the state and start Businesses and take on more work ,, as soon as independnce day gets here .?
50% of the country goes to University and does meaningless degrees and pays too much to student landlords
having to pay for it would discourage a lot of it , I suppose its good for the Academics and the University staff though , they can live a nice steady life .
The Health service is struggling , mostly under the weight of the obesity crisis , Scots are not exempt from this , so something has to change , you cant keep everything free as it does not seem to be appreciated enough , that they want to change their diet .
How do the Scottish Parliamnet manage to pay for free Uniiversity and free Health care , is there a secret to it ? where does the money come from ?
I thought labour doubled the size of the NHS and eductation and the other Public sector , is that not why we run a deficit at the minute ?
Not really a secret. We have those things in Scotland because a majority of voters chose to put their crosses on the ballot to elect a party which promised them in their manifesto.
"where does the money come from ?"
It comes from the Holyrood budget which represents only a portion of the taxes raised in Scotland. The rest of our taxes are used to fund reserved matters at westminster e.g war and nuclear weapons both of which are very much about, "strutting the world stage."
The UK government is almost always chosen by voters solely in England at a General Election. At least nine times out of ten, we are stuck with the party England voted for, like it or not.
Unaccountability is the fatal flaw of being in a union with a country more than ten times your population. And it’s why the union can’t last.
Enough’s enough.
Lets say 60% of Scots vote labour , they have had a Labour Govt the last 13 years . and beyond that in the 70,s
whjat about the 40 % who vote for the other parties ?
they get represented some of the time as well
Surely if Scotland was independent then you would just have labour winning every time , and the other 40 would never get a chance to get in .
Scottish politics changed for ever on the 6th of May last year and if the referendum produces a YES result then the Cons, Labs and Libs will eventually have to drag themselves into the present day and realise that. Up to now, they are burying their heads in the sand.
- Actually the architects of the Iraq war and other recent 'imperialist ventures' were the Labour Scottish mafia. Just like the British Empire, there was more than a very large dollop of Scottish imperialism in the mix.
However I do agree with breaking up the UK. I'm not sure what modern multicultural England really gains from the other nations of the UK, other than an appalling deal both politically and financially, and a lot of unwarranted Anglophobic hatred.
The dog breed is actually the English bulldog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog - it was foisted as a symbol on the rest of the countries of Britain by - who else? the English. It is a perfect example of how the Celtic nations have become sick and tired of watching the English strut the world and behaving as though English and British are synonymous, which in their minds they are. They are not, and that uncomfortable truth is only beginning to penetrate the English conciousness, and they don't seem pleased at the idea that Scotland and Wales might actually be viable countries in their own right.
The other point is about 'We fought together against Hitler under the Union flag' nonsense. So did soldiers from dozens of other Empire countries - more than 50 of which have become independent of London, and none of which have sought to return to direct rule. And the decisive army in the winning of the war was the Red Army, yet you never hear these rule-britania, union-jack clad petty nationalists suggesting we should have sought political union with the USSR, do you? Their arcane logic suggests that they should have.
Once again, thank you for a fair minded clearly thought out piece, and thanks to huff for publishing it.
What's the "English strut the world" bit about?
Lets get some stuff straight. Up to the last election Britain had had 13 years being run by Scots, either as prime minister or Chancellor (both actually). Tony Blair is a Scot as is Alistair Darling, as is the 2009 world statesman of the year, Gordon Brown. So this idea that Britain has been dominated by the English at a political level just isn't true.
Personally speaking I would like the Union to stay together, but if the Scots vote for independence, then OK, one thing I'll honestly be able to say is that at no stage did I need to become abusive or racist about another nation. Something that you clearly feel you need to do.
- Hope you're not referring to the British Empire here; the Scots were just as much involved in any strutting - in some cases more so.
'they don't seem pleased at the idea that Scotland and Wales might actually be viable countries in their own right'
- Actually support for Scottish independence has consistently been shown to be higher in England than in Scotland in various polls. Whoops
If you check some of the comment here and on other forums you would see that much of the English support for Scottish independence is based on xenophobia and petty jealousy. The English electorate's view on the matter counts for nothing though as none of them will have a vote in the only poll which will matter.