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Scotland and the Kellner Conundrum

Posted: 16/01/12 11:53 GMT

YouGov President Peter Kellner delves into the debate over Scottish independence and argues that the outcome of the coming referendum will depend on the voting system used

I should start with an apology. This blog will have a special, and possibly unhealthy, appeal for political nerds. It addresses some technical issues to do with democratic theory and the detailed arithmetic of Scottish opinion. However, theory and detailed arithmetic sometimes matter. This is one of those times. The future of the United Kingdom could depend less on the coming referendum than on the outcome of some apparently arcane negotiations between Edinburgh and London over the next few weeks. In my typically modest fashion, I am calling the problem that needs to be solved, the Kellner conundrum. Here goes.

Much of the news in recent days has reported the spat over the timing of a referendum on Scottish independence. In truth, the far bigger question is whether the Scots will be offered two options or three. David Cameron wants a straight choice: the status quo or full independence. Alex Salmond wants a third option – 'devo-max'. This would keep Scotland inside the United Kingdom, but the Edinburgh parliament would have far greater powers, especially over taxation and public spending.

A simple two-option referendum is obviously straightforward. When the votes are counted, there can be no doubt about which side won and which lost. But this would deny the Scots the chance to vote for a future that many of them would prefer. Salmond is a popular and persuasive politician with a strong case: I would not bet against him achieving a three-option referendum.

This is where the Kellner conundrum kicks in. There are at least four different ways in which a three-option referendum can be held. And the choice of system could decide the outcome.

1. First-past-the-post

Under FPTP, Scots would put a cross against their favourite system, just as they plump for their favourite candidate in general elections. Suppose this produces the following result:

Status quo: 34%

Devo-max: 30%

Independence: 36%

The most popular choice is independence. Scotland would go its own way, even though fewer than 50% of Scots voted for the UK to break up.

2. Alternative vote

This is the system proposed for Westminster and rejected in last May’s UK-wide referendum. People put a 'one' against their favourite option/candidate, 'two' against their second, and so on. The winner needs 50% support.

Suppose my FPTP example above reflects first choices. None of the options passes the 50% mark, so the least popular choice, devo-max, is eliminated. This would bring into play the second choices of the 30% who put a 'one' against devo-max. Suppose they divide 20-10 in favour of the status quo rather than independence. Then the final outcome would be:

Status quo: 34% + 20% = 54%

Independence: 36% + 10% = 46%

On these figures, the status quo would prevail.

3. Two questions

This is the method that Alex Salmond favours. People would be asked two questions: would they favour or oppose a move from the status quo to devo-max; and would they favour or oppose full independence?

I would expect a large majority of supporters of independence to prefer devo-max to the status quo. In my example, suppose the 36% supporting independence divides 28-8% for devo-max. Then the referendum would produce a clear 58-42% majority for devo-max over the status quo, while (assuming the same calculations as in system 2 above) rejecting independence.

However, a strong Salmond campaign could change the numbers: this system gives Salmond the outside hope of a vote for independence.

4. Condorcet voting

This is probably the most democratic system but least likely to be used: I can’t see a British Prime Minister agreeing to an unfamiliar idea thought up by an eighteenth century French philosopher.

Think of the contest as a mini soccer league, with each option as different club. Under the Condorcet system, there would be three votes, equivalent to the three matches that would be needed for each option to 'play' each other. Thus voters would be asked three questions: a) would they prefer the status quo or devo-max? b) the status quo or independence? c) devo-max or independence?

In my scenario, these would be the results of the three votes:

Devo-max beats the status quo (assuming most fans of independence prefer devo-max to the status quo)

The status quo beats independence

Devo-max beats independence

So two wins for devo-max and one for the status quo. Devo-max tops the league and collects the victory cup.

This is like Salmond’s favourite, system 3, but with one extra vote: devo-max versus independence. I can see why Salmond would prefer to avoid it. He hopes that smart campaigning will push support for independence, as against the status quo, above the 50% mark. But he knows that devo-max is bound to beat independence if the two options go head-to-head (because the vast majority of status quo supporters would switch to devo-max in order to prevent independence).

By avoiding the full Condorcet monty, he avoids a system that would certainly kill his dream of early independence. Proposing a system that pitches independence against the status quo, but not independence against devo-max, is like pitching Salmon’s favourite soccer team, Hearts,  against Dunfermline but not Celtic – the easier contest but not the tougher one. You have to hand it to Scotland’s First Minister: sounding utterly reasonable while proposing the particular system that will unquestionably mean more power for Edinburgh, and gives him an outside chance of full independence.

There you have it: four different systems, three different outcomes. And behind the arithmetic lies a genuine argument about the nature of democratic choice when three options are on the table: do we go with the most popular choice, the majority choice that’s left when the least popular has been ruled out, or the option that comes out on top when the contest is run as a pair of alternatives to the status quo?

In my example, independence is the most popular choice; the status quo is the victor when devo-max, the least popular, is eliminated; and devo-max probably wins out when voters are asked two questions – and definitely when they are asked three. There is no obviously right winner: genuine democrats could hold different views about which should prevail.

It would be nice to think that the coming weeks will see an earnest and elevated discussion about democratic principles. Sadly, we all know that Salmond, Cameron and their colleagues will be guided more by likely outcomes rather than democratic theory. Salmond is unquestionably one of the smartest politicians in Britain today. I’m sure he understands – and has understood for years – the arguments I have outlined here. He favours a three-option, two-question referendum because it serves his ambitions best.

Whether Cameron understands this is another matter. If he didn’t before, I’m sure that one of his advisers – possibly Andrew Cooper, the shrewd former head of Populus – will brief him before he meets Salmond later this month. Will Cameron continue to resist a three-option referendum – or, as the price of accepting a three-option vote, insist on a voting system less certain to reject the status quo? The 'best' system from Cameron’s point of view is AV – but could he embrace the system that he was roundly condemning just a few months ago without looking ridiculous? Cameron’s second best alternative is Condorcet – but could he bring himself to bring French thinking to solve a UK problem?

However they tackle the Kellner conundrum, the underlying point remains: the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom may be decided by the talks over the coming weeks, more than by the referendum campaign itself, whenever it takes place.

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YouGov President Peter Kellner delves into the debate over Scottish independence and argues that the outcome of the coming referendum will depend on the voting system used I should start with an apolo...
YouGov President Peter Kellner delves into the debate over Scottish independence and argues that the outcome of the coming referendum will depend on the voting system used I should start with an apolo...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
DaveJohnWard
06:37 PM on 01/22/2012
The thing which I find most confusing is that after so many years talking about this, the SNP does not have a clear set of plans and rules for all of these difficult questions. They say they will keep the £, so therefore they will have to follow the bidding of the Bank of England with regards to interest rates and other fiscal matters, they seem to expect to retain the current Defence set up, so presumably if England invades Iran, the Scots Regiments can expect a phone call, never mind questions about national debts, company ownership, being in the Commonwealth etc etc. Not sure how that equates to Independence, Devo Max just seems to be having the cake and eating it
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Seaniebhoy
09:46 PM on 01/19/2012
"Oh but let me tell you that I love you
That I think about you all the time
Caledonia you’re calling me and now I’m going home
But if I should become a stranger
You know that it would make me more than sad
Caledonia’s been everything I’ve ever had."
05:12 PM on 01/18/2012
This article has missed the easiest and most legitimate way to settle this issue. Two questions:

Question One: Do you want to change the status quo? (Yes/No)

Question Two: If the status quo is changed do you want devo max or full independence? (Devo-max/Full Independence).

This way surely could not be contested by anyone, whatever the result.
12:36 PM on 01/19/2012
Tenner the status quo is so unpopular well into single digits, that in Scotland there is little point in asking the question, the answer is a foregone conclusion.
Trouble with question two is what is devo-max and how does this differ from 'full' independence?
Is there another kind of independence that is not full?
The unionist parties realised that given a choice between independence and the status quo they could lose, so post Calman they introduced the idea of independence lite or devo-max which can mean whatever you want it to and no two people would agree to what that is, in exactly the same way they introduced devolution in order to stave off the call for independence back in the 70s.
01:46 PM on 01/19/2012
It cannot just be assumed the population wants more powers for the parliament (i.e. a break from the status quo) so this question must be asked for any referendum to be legitimate. Perhaps my wording is not helpful as it could be interpreted as a wider question about satisfaction with politics or the economic situation in general as opposed to a question of what powers the Scottish parliament should have. So I'll rephrase it like this:

Question One: Do you want the Scottish Parliament to take more powers from Westminster? (Yes/No)

So phrased like surely you can appreciate this question must be asked, we can not just sidestep it based on a mere opinion poll which carries no democratic legitimacy at all. If as you suggest the first vote carries then naturally we need to have a second vote on just how far people want to go, devo-max or full independence. Surely this makes sense?

As to your further point about what devo-max and full independence really mean you are of course correct, this would need to be spelt out exactly before the vote or the vote would be meaningless. I took that as a given and really my comment was proposing a better voting system to the ones mentioned in the article, which also did not get into the wider argument about the meaning behind the labels.
06:27 PM on 01/22/2012
In reply to your last comment (had to put it here as given no other option), I'm not sure you have made it clear what you want. I missed the 70s debate (too young) but have read about it and I'm well aware of all the underhand tactics which have been/are/will be used to stop Scotland breaking away.

So are you saying with this is mind and with the fuzziness of what Devo-max means you just want a straight "in or out" vote? If so fine, that would be have clear democratic legitimacy but it seems to me many folks want the option of devo-max, and the folk arguing for it now (as opposed to in the past) are Scottish civil society and the SNP, not Westminster.

All I'm saying is if there is going to be three choices then we need to do it with two similar questions to the ones I proposed. All the ways mentioned in the article are flawed.
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Mark B Robertson
09:14 AM on 01/17/2012
Very interesting. As a Scot, I want independence, however, the Condorcet voting method would also suffice. The status quo is completely unacceptable. Why do you think Cameron (& the puppeteer Foot-in-Mouth Osborne) is so opposed to it? The Tories stand to gain so much if Scotland gets independence or full fiscal autonomy. They will rule the newly independent England forever, with their claims of Scots being subsidy junkies tehy will be ecstatic as they will not be paying money to Scotland (in their imaginations). And they claim that we will have to join the EU, and the Eurozone, if so this applies to the newly independent England as well. I doubt they will join the EU. One last question, what happens to Britain security council seat, when Britain no longer exists?
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Allyb999
09:40 AM on 01/18/2012
Hi Mark, Just a couple of things. The Union would still exist, there would still be England, Wales and Northern Ireland. As you say why is Westminster so against Scotland leaving the Union? It has nothing to do with being patriotic to the Union, it cannot be because Scotland gives so much to the Union after all we have all heard the hype of how much costs the Union to keep. Yet the only reason so far given by the pro-Unionists is that we are stronger together. Makes any rational person think, why does the UK want to keep Scotland?
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Mark B Robertson
10:19 PM on 01/18/2012
The Union would not exist, the legal stuff that linked us was the Act of Union(1707), futher to this the new entity Great Britain linked to Ireland to form another new entity called the United Kingdom(1801, I think). So the United Kingdon is not ceasing yet the entity that ireland signed an agreement with is gone. I know nothing abot constitutional law so am from this point on very confused as to what the status of the remaining bits are?
11:57 AM on 01/19/2012
Sorry Allyb999 I have to agree with Mr Robertson on this one.
Wales to all intents and purposes became a part of England under the reign of HenryVIII, it ceased to be a political and legal entity in its own right, and until devolution existed in the same way as the ECB the England AND WALES Cricket board plays international test matches as England, and does not even feature the 'and Wales' part in its initials.

Northern Ireland is a historical anomaly remaining after the Easter Uprising and Irish independence. Many N Irishmen of my aquaintance regard themselves as more English than Irish, even decendants of Scottish settlers.
Incidentally Unionism in the UK, as in the Conservative and Unionist Party, actually refers to the Irish Union of 1801 not the Union between England and Scotland of 1707 which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Great Britain being the collection of islands upon which these countries happen to be.
As for why would Whitehall want to hang onto Scotland, you could ask any of those former colonies and dependencies that used to belong to the Empire?
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jacksdad41
Quant Je Puis
11:17 AM on 01/19/2012
Why would the tories rule England forever?? Even without the 30? seats of Labour each constituency is still up for grabs via democracy. It has been proved it would not alter the voting one way or the other (apart from the West Lothian question). I hope you get your way for the divorce of Scotland - for no other reason than that would be fair to the people of Scotland if that is what they desire. I have no right to an opinion or a vote on Scotlands future, I would like to see only 2 options though - in or out. I dont think the security council seat is in question. It has long been the will of the Scots to rid them of nuclear subs. Relocate the Rosyth dockyards South and Helensburgh subs also. Remove the RM from Arbroath and I think the security council will not be an issue, why should it? As for the EU I think AS will have to make up his mind on that one - the Euro may suit your oil reserves better or even the dollar as the Scottish pound doesnt seem a popular option for the Nationalists.
12:19 PM on 01/19/2012
If you check I think you'll find that Margaret Thatcher removed the submarine work from Rosyth to Devonport about 30years ago, but thoughtfully left us half a dozen rusting nuclear hulks to remember her by.
Nowhere in England has shown willing to paint a big nuclear target over itself in the way that Coulport and Faslane near Glasgow had by housing the UK's nuclear deterrent submarines and warhead arsenal, but if anyone wants them there will be no tears shed in Scotland to see them go. There are no non-nuclear countries on the UN Permanent Security Council.

The third referendum option of devo-max was actually insisted upon by unionists out of the Calman Commission in order to split the nationalist vote, but now is being peddled by them as some nationalist safety net.

FYI Scottish National Party policy is to keep or to shadow the pound, as the Irish did, and then to adopt whatever convertible international currency most favours Scottish national interests further down the line.