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Prayer Ban: Balancing the Reaction

Posted: 10/02/2012 14:21

As we contemplate the implications of the High Court decision that the saying of prayers as part of local council business is illegal, the National Secular Society is bracing for an absolute torrent of abuse, exaggeration, misrepresentation and hysteria from conservative sources.

There will be a repeat of the usual accusations that we have destroyed Christianity in Britain, trampled religious freedom, taken away the right to pray, discriminated against believers, hijacked the judicial system etc.

Already James Dingemans QC, who acted for Bideford Council, has said: "The Coronation Oath would need to be abolished; the council's involvement in services of remembrance would be prevented; and chaplains would not be able to serve in HM Armed Forces." All that is rubbish, of course.

So, in anticipation of all this predictable stuff - which will flood the Daily Mail and Telegraph - here are a few attempts at balancing the reaction.

1. Nobody will be stopped from praying. The only restriction will be on when they pray. Councillors who want to can still get together before the meeting and make their invocations. Otherwise, councils are secular institutions engaged in civic business, they are not churches, and prayers cannot be part of their official agenda.

2. This is a ruling about a breach of the Local Government Act. It applies therefore only to local government. Silly claims that the Coronation Oath will be illegal and prayers in parliament will have to cease - and even that councillors wilh be banned from attending Remembrance Day Services - and even, as was claimed by one prominent evangelical Christian at the Oxford Union yesterday, that the saying of grace before meals will be outlawed - are all untrue. Parliament makes its own rules about its procedures and is not subject to rulings from the courts. It would be up to MPs and peers to decide whether they wanted to stop praying. Something that seems extremely unlikely at present.

3. Religious liberty is in no way compromised by this ruling. Everyone in this country is free to practise a religion in any way they want to - within the law. As this judgment shows, praying as part of council business is not within the law. Of course, if councillors want to pray during their duties, they can do it silently and who could stop them? Surely if a prayer is to an omnipotent God, it would be just as effective inside the head as one that is spoken? The problem comes from the way the phrase 'religious freedom' has been redefined by the churches to mean not only that they are free to worship according to their lights, but that they are entitled to privilege and to impose their beliefs on others.

4. Studies show that huge numbers of people in this country have no religion, don't want any religion and, increasingly, are hostile to religion. Why - as a condition of serving their community - should they be forced to participate in an activity that goes against their conscience?

5. Members of other religions are also increasingly participating in our local democracies. We can no longer insist that only Christian prayers are said and, as we have seen in Portsmouth, attempts at multi-faith prayers can result in believers of other religions walking out because they don't want to participate. This could be catastrophic for community relations and is completely avoidable if prayers are said voluntarily away from the council chamber.

None of this will stop the Christian Institute and the Christian Concern people making outlandish claims about their religion being brutally murdered by heartless secularists.

In fact, it's rather a modest ruling, but one that we are happy about.

But these same people will have to accept that not everyone is a Christian, not everyone wants to be a Christian and their selfish demands for Christianity to have special privileges sound more and more arrogant.

 
As we contemplate the implications of the High Court decision that the saying of prayers as part of local council business is illegal, the National Secular Society is bracing for an absolute torrent o...
As we contemplate the implications of the High Court decision that the saying of prayers as part of local council business is illegal, the National Secular Society is bracing for an absolute torrent o...
 
 
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12:00 AM on 02/13/2012
Terry you say: "The only restriction will be on when they pray".

My religion does not recognise any restriction on when I can pray, or indeed where.
05:36 AM on 02/13/2012
You have taken this out of context. As Terry said later you can pray anytime and anywhere you want but you you can't impose your prayer on others during council meetings. Say your prayers silently if you must.
06:34 PM on 02/13/2012
Indeed I can pray anytime and anywhere, including in conversation or in meetings. I can pray out loud or quietly. Whichever I choose will be done on what I feel to be appropriate, and courtesy to others. As of two days ago, therefore I wouldn't have considered it appropriate to pray out loud in a meeting.

Of course if others were saying to me "you may not pray under these circumstances" then that would of course become a matter of principle, and I would of course resist such pressure to curtail my religious liberty.

If for example someone were to say "you may not pray in a council meeting" to me, and I happened to be a councillor, then I would of course find a moment in that meeting to publicly give thanks to God for something, and if that offends atheists, well that's very sad.

If the law today says that I MUST NOT pray in a non-religious meeting, then notwithstanding that I would not have dreamt of doing so two days ago, then today I would.

No-one can impose silence on me. You must trust to my good manners, which you can rely on. But if you try to impose silence on me, or say I must only pray here or there, or on such and such a time, then you are on a hiding to nothing, and I will make your silly law unenforceable.

When it is revoked, I will revert to my former position.
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine
11:40 AM on 02/12/2012
Everyone in this country is free to practise a religion in any way they want to - within the law. Catch 22. God IS the law.
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Paul Wagland
Resistance is fertile
06:53 PM on 02/12/2012
Happily, catch 23 states that God doesn't exist.
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine
11:36 AM on 02/12/2012
Christians will ignore the ban, as we know that we must obey God's law , before men's.
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Thismortalcoil
Science is the poetry of reality
06:47 PM on 02/12/2012
Er, have you actually seen what the ban is eddy?

The Christians in question were offered the option of praying in their own time before the meetings. They refused. These councillors want to be paid to waste time praying instead of getting on with the work they are supposed to be doing.
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine
01:21 AM on 02/13/2012
You're right. They should have prayed before the meeting. My mistake.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
10:53 PM on 02/12/2012
If only my fellow Christians would comply with Jesus' teaching on the matter - i,e, DO IT IN PRIVATE!
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine
01:19 AM on 02/13/2012
Agreed.
10:17 PM on 02/14/2012
Luke chapter 18 verse 1 "Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up."

more than one verse in the Bible about praying
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Indygrl76
Curiosity, reason, science, courage, truth...
06:35 PM on 02/11/2012
I simply refuse to pray to anything-- least of all the invisible friend in the theme park in the sky! Ugh... it's all so tiresome. If others want to do this, they should not impose it on everyone else-- do it before or after the public meetings-- let public meetings be about public buisness not personal, private ideology of any kind.... once again "...religion poisons everything!"
04:16 PM on 02/11/2012
Thanks for that!

I'd like to add.. "Religeon requires" 1.. Ignorance. 2..Poverty 3.. A need for fellowship ( lack of friends). 4.. Superstition. 5.. To clock up points before death.
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine
11:38 AM on 02/12/2012
A statement like that requires only one thing. Ignorance.
03:52 PM on 02/11/2012
I am hostile toward any religion that wages war on my liberty. Prayer is a religious or spiritual act that is and should be always separate from government of all of the people.
10:32 AM on 02/11/2012
I agree with how prayers shouldn't be imposed on those without a religious faith. However, it is wrong to assume how effective a prayer is to an omnipotent Deity, if we don't even fully understand the concept of omnipotence. Plus how effective a prayer is will be relative to how the individual feels.
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BOBinPS
Really?
02:15 AM on 02/13/2012
I completely agree that it is wrong to assume that prayer is effective.
10:22 AM on 02/13/2012
That isn't what I said at all.
05:43 AM on 02/13/2012
"Plus how effective a prayer is will be relative to how the individual feels". What the heck does that mean. I feel nasty today so is my prayer more likely to be effective? What study confirms this inane hypothesis?
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BOBinPS
Really?
08:16 PM on 02/14/2012
My interpretation of what was said is that an individuals perception of the success or failure of prayer depends upon the emotions elicited by the act of praying. Both perception and emotion are products of the human brain and do not require supernatural intervention. But, I agree, the comment was too oblique to be easily uniquely understood.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
11:32 PM on 02/10/2012
And in further good news the christian taliban guesthouse owners lost today.
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Paul Houston
British and a London resident
09:29 PM on 02/10/2012
How come, when the courts rule on something like this, there are the usual rants about this being a "Christian Country" but the moment some one from the church says we should look after the poor and needy, the same people are suddenly ranting about the church not living in reality!
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Thismortalcoil
Science is the poetry of reality
06:49 PM on 02/12/2012
Very good point Paul. And a Christian 'Charity' paid for the councillors' court costs. Would that money not have been better spent on the poor and needy?
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
08:36 PM on 02/10/2012
No change there, then.

Well done.
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Ppenguinator
Life's too imprtant to be taken seriously.
06:31 PM on 02/10/2012
Thank you for helping to spread the facts.
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Thismortalcoil
Science is the poetry of reality
06:15 PM on 02/10/2012
Let's hope this High Court Ruling takes us another step closer to achieving a more balanced, fair and democratic society where state and religion are separated.

We have laws about equality in this country and yet we have Bishops in the House of Lords helping to control the running of our country. And yet women can't be Bishops.

Apparently women are equal enough to pay taxes for the House of Lords but not equal enough to have equal access.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
08:37 PM on 02/10/2012
I wouldn't mind so much if any of the bishops were even slightly talented in any respected.
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Paul Wagland
Resistance is fertile
03:50 PM on 02/10/2012
Excellent post.

If people want to support this kind of thinking, they might like to join the National Secular Society.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/
05:55 PM on 02/10/2012
Just did!
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Thismortalcoil
Science is the poetry of reality
06:25 PM on 02/10/2012
Me too!
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02:15 AM on 02/11/2012
Is there a US equivalent, do you know?
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Paul Wagland
Resistance is fertile
12:26 PM on 02/12/2012
I'm not sure, but you could start looking here: http://www.the-brights.net/
08:51 PM on 02/12/2012
Llisa - Yes, there are several U.S.organizations that represent atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, etc. Included are the American Humanistic Association, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Go to your favorite search engine for their web sites. I recently joined the first two listed, as I am becoming increasingly concerned with the evanglicial religious right efforts to inject religion into state and public functions. Good luck!
03:38 PM on 02/10/2012
Let's make it a prayer to G*d therefore including most people.
05:47 AM on 02/13/2012
Why not private individual prayer for those that must and therefore include ALL the people.