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Bamiyan, Timbuktu - Are the Pyramids Next?!

Posted: 17/07/2012 00:00

If you believe this, the days of the pyramids are numbered: "According to several reports in the Arabic media," writes Raymond Ibrahim, "prominent Muslim clerics have begun to call for the demolition of Egypt's Great Pyramids."

In actual fact, it seems the story originated in a spoof tweet. But hey! It's the easiest thing in the world to find someone somewhere expressing some wacko view or other; and then Mark Steyn repeats it all, and off we go...

Let's be crystal-clear about this right here. The answer to the question in my title is a mile-high, neon "NO". The pyramids of Giza are under no threat whatsoever, and neither is any of the rest of Egypt's glorious archaeological record. This is as radical as the thinking is getting among anyone anywhere near power in Egypt. Not to put too fine a point on it, Ibrahim is scaremongering, and it comes as no surprise when he goes on to offer a deeply misleading account of what has been happening in Timbuktu: "Currently, in what the International Criminal Court is describing as a possible 'war crime,' Islamic fanatics are destroying the ancient heritage of the city of Timbuktu in Mali--all to Islam's triumphant war cry, 'Allahu Akbar!'"

To read that that you'd think that the only Muslims involved in events at Timbuktu were the ones doing the vandalism. But of course it was Islamic buildings that they were attacking. Ansar al-Din, the al-Qaeda-affiliated zealots in northern Mali, consider the traditional Sufi practices of Timbuktu to be heretical. What Ibrahim is doing is treating the most extreme voices of Islam as representative of the whole religion, to the extent of implying that the Sufi Muslims of Timbuktu aren't really proper Muslims at all.

Ibrahim is not alone. I blogged last week about Pamela Geller playing the same game, using Timbuktu as a stick to beat Islam when what Timbuktu was telling us was something entirely different.

Islam is a very broad church, with no central organizing authority (like a Pope, say) to fix doctrine. As in other religions, there's a tendency for different traditions within the religion to claim themselves as the uniquely authentic face of Islam, and al-Qaeda and their allies make that claim in a particularly uncompromising and brutal way. But there's a further point: if Raymond Ibrahim treats the Sufi of Timbuktu as not proper Muslims, he's in effect adopting the viewpoint of al-Qaeda. What a stunning victory for extremists this is, that people across the US and beyond are being encouraged to accept al-Qaeda's distorted ideology as the truth!

The comments under my blog on Timbuktu told a similar story. Someone came in with a link to Ibrahim's article; others encouraged me to read polemics by Hindu nationalists such as Sita Ram Goel's Hindu Temples--What Happened to Them, which seeks to prove that Muslim rulers in India systematically destroyed Hindu shrines. That brought me back to where I started with this whole issue, the Buddhas of Bamiyan. One way that the Taliban and their sympathizers sought to justify the destruction of the Buddhas was to claim it as payback for the demolition of the Baburi Mosque at Ayodhya by Hindu hardliners in 1992.

An intense and polarized debate continues to this day about Ayodhya, what was there before the mosque was built by the Moghul emperor Babur, and what (if anything) happened to Hindu buildings on the site, and it was an issue of great interest to Sita Ram Goel. On the other side, numerous Islamist terrorist attacks on Indians have claimed the destruction of this mosque as their motivation.

Extreme Hindu nationalism, like the ideology of al-Qaeda and the paranoid theories of certain US commentators, is very interested in history, but deals in radical historical simplifications--for example, the idea that Islam is a religion hard-wired to destroy the religious monuments of its opponents. That is simply a false account of what happened, historically, when Islamic peoples encountered non-Islamic.

The Buddhas of Bamiyan survived, and were celebrated, for 1,200 years among Muslims before the Taliban and their allies in al-Qaeda destroyed them. I encourage anyone interested in Islamic attitudes to Hindu and Buddhist holy places to read Richard M. Eaton's measured, careful analysis, "Temple Desecration and Indo-Muslim States", Part 1 and Part 2. He tells a story of Muslim rulers in India who for the most part protected non-Islamic shrines, and on the rare occasions they did otherwise were following a time-honoured tradition within India of destroying your enemies' favourite temples: Hindus had been demolishing other Hindus' places of worship for centuries before Islam arrived. The crucial point, though, is that these Muslim rulers in India were never driven by religious fanaticism. However, in the context of tension between India and Pakistan, extreme simplifications of history thrive: Hindus are superstitious idol-worshippers; Muslims are intolerant idol-smashers. Scrupulous scholars like Richard Eaton prove that it is just not that simple.

But, as I commented at the end of my blog on Timbuktu, "Ideologues in one camp have a habit of creating ideologues in other camps, and the argument goes on and on and on..." That notion was illustrated in glorious technicolor below the line. Get your head around this logic, in one of the comments:

"if Ansar al-Din, the extremists doing the damage in Timbuktu, claim to be the only true Muslims, then we have to accept that claim, and regard what is happening in Timbuktu as Islam attacking non-Muslims."

In other words, we must accept al-Qaeda's analysis of Islam and the world, that they are the only authentic Muslims and all other Muslims must be forced to follow their creed. That strikes me as plain bonkers. What on earth compels us to accept al-Qaeda's view of things? Sufi Muslims are Muslims. Full stop. But credit where credit is due: irrational as it is, that comment does capture something essential about the thinking (for want of a better word) on this issue. Radicals like al-Qaeda want to provoke their opponents to be equally radical, because they want to create unbridgeable divisions between peoples, and an existential conflict which (they fondly suppose) will bring their appalling ideology to world domination. Commentators who define Islam as essentially incompatible with Western values are doing al-Qaeda's job for it.

Sita Ram Goel, Raymond Ibrahim and Ansar al-Din are all, in a peculiar way, speaking the same language, the language of extremes, where religions cannot communicate peacefully with one another, and complex and diverse faiths are reduced to crude caricatures. In the words of the Arab Spring activist Iyad El-Baghdadi, "Islamophobes and extreme Islamists are two peas in a pod. Both invent a radical, extreme sect and call it 'the one & only true Islam'."

But we must insist that there is another language, a precious but undervalued one. It isn't glamorous, and it requires the kind of laborious hours in the library that Richard M. Eaton put in. It resists seductively black-and-white explanations of events, and the temptation all humans feel to demonise what they do not know. It is never going to inspire young men to pull down a mosque or become suicide bombers. It is fiddly, unexciting, humane--and true. It is called moderation.

 
 
 

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If you believe this, the days of the pyramids are numbered: "According to several reports in the Arabic media," writes Raymond Ibrahim, "prominent Muslim clerics have begun to call for the demolition ...
If you believe this, the days of the pyramids are numbered: "According to several reports in the Arabic media," writes Raymond Ibrahim, "prominent Muslim clerics have begun to call for the demolition ...
 
 
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10:27 AM on 08/05/2012
Looks like the author never visited old Hindu temples - May be he should take time to visit places in AP and Karnataka regioun that were blessed by Bahamani sultans. Or in Central India that were graced by the marching armies of Delhi Sultans and Mughals.

There are thousands of Hindu temples - architectural marvels or not - that stand as mute testimony to the generosity of Muslims and as a reflection of their religious tolerance.

The author of this article should visit them and see for himself to understand the scale of destruction perpetrated by muslims in India

What a waste of talent ...
10:33 PM on 08/06/2012
@SecularSiddanti "There are thousands of Hindu temples - architectural marvels or not - that stand as mute testimony to the generosity of Muslims and as a reflection of their religious tolerance."

Don't know where did you get thousands of those temple list. If such types of temple there then it must be in tens or hundreds at MAX.

BUT there are thousands of Hindu temples where Muslims invaded and it shows intolerance Islamic barbaric rulers. Kashi Vishwanath, Somanath, Mathura and list is really long.
08:20 AM on 08/05/2012
"The crucial point, though, is that these Muslim rulers in India were never driven by religious fanaticism." Lovely!
Thank god Aurangzeb isn't around, he would have been offended by this blog.
06:37 PM on 07/27/2012
When Mohammed smashed 360 idols in Mecca himself which muslims all take geat pride in so why wont all his followers do the same ? Or is Dr Morgan going to provide us with proof that along with their Muslim brethren the non existing Arab Pagans still worship at the Kabaa originally an Arab pagan religious site.Even Sufism theres many variations.Many who came to india encouraged muslim soldiers and kings to destroy hindu temples where instead many sufi shrines are built upon.It seems Dr Morgans research goes far as the local indian tandoori in oxford over a few poppadoms and a very hot vindaloo downed with cobra beer to express the after effects here..:))
10:26 AM on 07/26/2012
Oh goodness me, I am depressed to see this from my old alma mater. Honestly, I expect this sort of thing from the US, but from Oxford? Really?

Let me take a look at this:

"To read that that you'd think that the only Muslims involved in events at Timbuktu were the ones doing the vandalism. But of course it was Islamic buildings that they were attacking. Ansar al-Din, the al-Qaeda-affiliated zealots in northern Mali, consider the traditional Sufi practices of Timbuktu to be heretical"

Well, let's see now. If the salafi reactionaries are willing to do this to other Islamic sects, what might they be willing to do to pagan monuments?

And then there's the following that I just don't get:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/20894

Which seems to argue very extensively for the destruction of non-Islamic art.

Then there's this: "http://www.el-balad.com/222245

Google translate works well enough. Then there's the following:

http://www.elaph.com/Web/NewsPapers/2012/6/744787.html
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/elaph.com

Which seems to indicate a rising tide of fanaticism.

And as you yourself quite clearly say and as the above fatwa very clearly says, the Islamic tendency towards iconoclasm has a long, long history.

But what troubles me most about this is seeing someone from my old alma mater go in for such foolishness.
10:10 PM on 07/27/2012
"...what troubles me most about this is seeing someone from my old alma mater go in for such foolishness."

The lights are going out all over Europe. We will not see them lit again - what was saved at Tours and Vienna is being handed over for cash and kebabs.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/05/saudi-arabia-buys-oxford.html

"Between 1995 and 2008, eight universities — Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, University College London, the LSE, Exeter, Dundee and City accepted more than £235 million from Muslim rulers and those closely connected to them."
12:18 AM on 07/26/2012
Good thing that Sufis really are Muslims. That means that Timbuktu is in no danger, clearly. And neither were the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. Disarmament via definition.
06:31 PM on 07/25/2012
If you believe Sita Ram Goel was manufacturing facts, it should be very easy for you to prove him wrong. He lists 2000 mosques in the subcontinent that he says are built on top of Hindu temples destroyed by Muslims. This is a claim that is falsifiable. How hard can it be for you or your fellow travelers like Eaton to prove he was lying by listing 10 of them and giving us evidence to show he was wrong? Do let me know if you have done this (I am not interested in speculative psychobabble about the motivations of Muslim rulers and whether the acts of destruction were "political" or "religious.").

******************
From the Gates of Vienna blog:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/05/saudi-arabia-buys-oxford.html

"Between 1995 and 2008, eight universities — Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, University College London, the LSE, Exeter, Dundee and City accepted more than £235 million from Muslim rulers and those closely connected to them."
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Bids Well
12:00 AM on 07/25/2012
I would take this threat seriously. They destroyed the Budhas.
09:19 PM on 07/24/2012
He seems to be caught out in this latest article distorting facts

Dr Llewelyn Morgan : Another Hindu-Phobic from Oxford ?

http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/dr-llewelyn-morgan-another-hindu-phobic-from-oxford/
03:53 PM on 07/24/2012
Dear Mr. Morgan, historical facts seem to be distorted by the ideological prism through which you view the past and our present reality.

If you have the capability of commanding an ounce of independent thought, I'd recommend you review all of Mr. Ibrahim's articles and check all his facts very carefully.

You are doing no favor to the HP by posting articles that are the clear product of a BDUI.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
07:16 PM on 07/17/2012
From the Eaton article, his summary is that since Muslims did not destroy every single temple in India, this means that their motivation was not simply religious iconoclasm, but also political. (pt 2, pg 76-77)... LOL, that's it!

He goes on about Aurengzeb saying that there will no more temple destruction (which did happen anyhow), but fails to mention that Aurengzeb actually tried to impose sharia on non-Muslims, going as far as ordering the destruction of musical instruments. One has to forego telling a lot of stuff in order to make the overall point that Eaton tries to make.

As to Ayodhya, here is an interview with historian K. Elst about the archeological dig and what was found, as well as the arguments used by both sides, and the evidence which was used to try to back up the claims... http://youtu.be/C9FmXTKGPrg
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
07:31 PM on 07/17/2012
Percival Spear, co-author (with Romila Thapar) of the prestigious Penguin History of India, writes: "Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares."

First, note the discordance between Aurengzeb saying that no more temples will be destroyed, and even the leftist historians who admit that temple destruction did in fact occur, even as they cast someone who tried to impose sharia on non-Muslims as 'tolerant'!

Some links to peruse:

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/kashivishvanath.html ("Why did Aurangzeb Demolish the Kashi Vishvanath?", by K. Elst)

This above temple has a history which involves: "Aurangzeb ordered its demolition in 1669 and constructed Gyanvapi Mosque, which still exists alongside the temple.[7] Traces of the old temple can be seen behind the mosque. It is said that the Shiv-Linga was thrown in the 'well'. So the original Shiv-linga now resides in the well. The current temple was built by Ahilya Bai Holkar, the Hindu Maratha queen of Malwa kingdom, in 1780." [the mosque was left by the Hindus as they rebuilt the temple, rather than tear it down). @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashi_Vishwanath_Temple
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
07:41 PM on 07/17/2012
BTW, here is the gem at the end of the above link:

"So now, we finally know where the story comes from: an unnamed mullah friend of an unnamed acquaintance of Sitaram ayya's knew of a manuscript, the details of which he took with him in his grave. This is the "document" on which secularist journalists and historians base their "evidence" of Aurangzeb's fair and secularist disposition, overruling the evidence of archaeology and the cold print of the Maasiri Alamgiri, to "explode the myth" of Islamic iconoclasm spread by the "chauvinist" Hindutva propagandists. Now you just try to imagine what the secularists and their mouthpieces in Western academe would say if Hindus offered evidence of this quality."

The "document' tells of of a folk tale of how Aurgenzeb actually destroyed the temple at the behest of an Hindu princess who had been taken advantage of by the temple priests. This made it a pro-Hindu virtuous act, supposedly. This is the UNSUBSTANTIATED story that the whole sharade hangs on, but archeology and historical documents (real ones) do not comport with this.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
07:48 PM on 07/17/2012
The Somnath temple also has an interesting history. It was destroyed 7 times and rebuilt 7 times. the last time in 1947 when it was rebuilt, the mosque which existed on the spot was dismantled and moved some distance away, where it still stands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath
05:55 PM on 07/17/2012
Dear HP, I see comments by myself and others giving a hindu perspective to this totally insensitive article distorting facts has been removed .Is HF an anti hindu news blog and only puts across those views regardless if its factual or not ? If thats the case then I will approach hindu organisations to bring this issue up to them where facts are distorted in the same way David Irving denials of the holocaust.thanks
10:33 PM on 07/24/2012
Dr Llewelyn Morgan : Another Hindu-Phobic from Oxford ?

http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/dr-llewelyn-morgan-another-hindu-phobic-from-oxford/
10:51 AM on 07/26/2012
arjun, short answer: yes. There is a pronounced and marked prejudice against Hindus because the state of India has built itself up and its people are known for their industriousness and achievement in areas of science and so forth.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
10:18 PM on 07/28/2012
And there is some weird history constructed by Oxford over the years, and which when brought to light will take some shine off. I'm thinking of the areas of mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery.
01:29 PM on 07/17/2012
Quite a lot of the Qu'ran states that one ought to live in peace with neighbours. Ansar Al Din are in an unrecognised state (Azawad) and Washington are terrified of an Islamic bomb (lots of Uranium in Azawad). Tub thumping par excellence on both sides.
04:13 AM on 07/26/2012
"Quite a lot of the Qu'ran states that one ought to live in peace with neighbours."

And the rest has verses like this:

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Can you feeeeel the love tonight?
09:20 AM on 07/26/2012
Any great book has contradictions. Old testament? I am off to hug an Imam.
This comment has been removed.
09:40 PM on 07/16/2012
You'd need a nuke to destroy the pyramids....or about 20,000 extremists working around the clock for years.
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Llewelyn Morgan
10:14 PM on 07/16/2012
Quite.
02:30 AM on 07/26/2012
This sounds like a problem from middle school: If 20,000 extremists working round the clock can destroy the 118 existing pyramids in 20 years, how many extremists do you need to destroy the same number in 1 month?
Answer: a lot less than 1.6 billion.
08:47 PM on 07/16/2012
The tweet might have been a hoax. However, most Egyptians in Egypt (from Cairo to Luxor, Muslims and non-Muslims), actually believe that there are people who want to destroy the pyramids. Are they wrong or do they know what that the author of this piece doesn't?
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Llewelyn Morgan
10:18 PM on 07/16/2012
Most people in the UK believe that there are people who would like marriage between people and horses to be legalized. That doesn't mean it's going to happen, does it? I'm not claiming there aren't people out there who want to destroy the pyramids; I'm saying that certain US commentators who claim it as a serious possibility are misleading their readers, and playing on their fears.
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dennis1943
whatever the voices in my head say.......
02:04 PM on 07/17/2012
Thanks for making mine the only comment replied to.........