PayPal 'Forced Online Buyer To Destroy Antique Violin Amid Counterfeit Claims'

Violin

First Posted: 04/01/12 17:30 Updated: 06/01/12 16:51

An online seller endured a “heartbreaking” experience after claiming PayPal made a buyer destroy her $2,500 violin because it was deemed “counterfeit”.

The owner, named only as Erica, made the sale to a buyer in Canada, who requested a refund, having disputed the authenticity label.

According to Erica: “This is not uncommon. In the violin market, labels often mean little and there is often disagreement over them. Some of the most expensive violins in the world have disputed labels, but they are works of art nonetheless.”

In order to get his money back, Erica claims the buyer was ordered by PayPal to destroy the instrument – which bore the label -Bourguignon Maurice - and send a photograph as proof.

Erica shared her story with Regretsy.com , where she wrote: “The buyer was so proud of himself, he sent me a photo of the destroyed violin.

“I am now out a violin that made it through WWII as well as $2,500. This is of course upsetting.

"But my main goal in writing to you is to prevent PayPal from ordering the destruction of violins and other antiquities that they know nothing about. It is beyond me why PayPal simply didn’t have the violin returned to me.

“I spoke on the phone to numerous reps from PayPal who 100% defended their action and gave me the party line.”

Despite Erica’s heartbreak, PayPal’s terms and conditions do include a paragraph about the destruction of goods deemed to be counterfeit.

It says: “ For SNAD (significantly not as described) claims... PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction.”

A spokesman for PayPal said: "While we cannot talk about this particular case due to PayPal's privacy policy, we carefully review each case, and in general we may ask a buyer to destroy counterfeit goods if they supply signed evidence from a knowledgeable third party that the goods are indeed counterfeit.

"The reason why we reserve the option to ask the buyer to destroy the goods is that in many countries, including the US, it is a criminal offense to mail counterfeit goods back to a seller."

Antique violin dealer Andrew Hooker told the Guardian only an “imbecile” would buy a precious instrument without playing it first.

He added: “I sympathise with the wronged party but a fool and his money are easily parted.”

An earlier version of this story made reference to 'Erica' as an eBay user. eBay was not referenced in the original article and we were happy to amend this.

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An online seller endured a “heartbreaking” experience after claiming PayPal made a buyer destroy her $2,500 violin because it was deemed “counterfeit”. The owner, named only as Erica, made...
An online seller endured a “heartbreaking” experience after claiming PayPal made a buyer destroy her $2,500 violin because it was deemed “counterfeit”. The owner, named only as Erica, made...
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19:02 on 02/05/2012
Paypal should be called payripoff been burnt twice on ebay and paypal messed everything up, ended up losing nearly £700 so never again would I deal with paypal or ebay-stay clear find better alternatives or risk losing out to paypal who are not regulated like banks or building society. They make up their own rules and are unregulated to a large part, paying only lip service to whichever countries laws they operate in. Just do a google search for paypal ripoff and I think you will see for yourself.
23:18 on 07/01/2012
The stupid part of this is Paypal took just the word of the buyer it was a bad item , without him having to present at least a letter from an expert. If it's an overseas sale the seller is better off with Western Union or even VISA.
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Alexis Elizabeth Drob
There's no intelligent life down here
05:54 on 07/01/2012
Don't like paypal, how about checking out (alertpay.com) instead.
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Reality always bites
Sometimes just a bit peckish
21:33 on 06/01/2012
E-Bay Gum. Yorkshire folk would never put up with this! If you owe me any money then pay-Pal!
21:18 on 06/01/2012
one shoild never use paypal you can never trust them i am trying to get the CEE to ban them from the CEE
16:39 on 06/01/2012
If I ever do use eBay again, as a private seller who has had funds locked when the buyer claimed they never received the item, even after I provided proof of posting, I will make it abundantly clear to the buyer, via private e-mail that they enter into a private agreement that is legally binding contract that proof of sending is all they will get unless they provide more money to pay the cost of registered post. I will also make it clear on my adverts that all my stuff is normally sent Recorded Delivery and that they should not bid if they are not happy with just proof of posting. I fail to see how eBay or PayPal can legally disregard what is now an openly binding contractual agreeement between the seller and the buyer based on terms I agree with, not ones some anonymous corporation decides to foister upon me. These companies should be acting to help you, not dictating your livelihoods or re-writing the law to their own advantage.
16:31 on 06/01/2012
Oh! Another reason to not use Paypal... one of their sister companies scammed money out of my account. I no longer keep any credit card information on board with them. No way, no how.
15:28 on 06/01/2012
i bought a so called silver bracelet (supposedly from a well known jeweller) from ebay only to find that when it arrived it was silver colour on copper and not a good copy. When I taked to ebay and paypal they wanted me to post it back to seller at my own cost and said that they then hoped that the seller would have the morals to send my money back but was not obliged too. So I was out of pocket all along, I didnt bother to send it back as it seemed like throwing good money after bad.
01:31 on 07/01/2012
IF the item was discribed as "SOLID SILVER" & not 925,take it to a reputable jeweller,have them check it, IF it IS as you say silver plate on copper,purchased from a BRITISH shop,then you can take them to the small claims court,stateing that this item does not conform to the trading standards of BRITISH sales, & was frauduantly discribed, IF on the other hand the item was sold from another country (ie) china,USA, (etc) then Im afraid as the saying goes you have just "SHXT out"as these regulations do not cover other countries,or go to your local citizens advise,who will be able to give you the best advise possible without incurring the cost of a solicitor.
14:54 on 06/01/2012
Another good reason not to use Pay Pal. I stopped long ago.
14:36 on 06/01/2012
Ebay and Paypal now there's a right combination fleeced like a Lamb and then led to the slaughter, and you have absolutly NO comeback. They can freeze your account for any reason and you can spend many months just waiting for a reply, that is, if they feel like answering you. Just go on line and see how many people they have ruined.
10:35 on 06/01/2012
Surely it was only the label that was not correct - the violin was still the violin sold?
10:12 on 06/01/2012
I bought something on ebay once just to prove the seller was a complete fraud , got the item then sent it off to get authenticated and when it come back not authentic ... I first contacted the buyer who blew me off , then ebay/ paypal and they both blew me off . Thank god I didn't pay over $10.00 for it . Both ebay and paypal said I had to work it out with seller and there was nothing they coud do .
14:48 on 06/01/2012
That's a lot of trouble to go through for $10
15:19 on 06/01/2012
not really , when you have contacts and friends in the business of sports authentication it didn't cost me anything .
anothervoice2
332 electoral votes is a mandate
22:38 on 06/01/2012
Then that is the rare transaction where they sided with the seller. Otherwise, doesn't matter the specifics, buyer is always right.
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Lady Saera
Love,love,love is the soul of genius, 'Mozart'
09:45 on 06/01/2012
This is a shame, I've run an ebay business it's fun too, while pursuing writing, art. and classes. A good way to work at home, but you really have to be on your toes. This story is extroardinary, always learning something...but am not too fond of their holding (paypal) funds, but its been rare as far as percentages go. Most people I find are really honest, that's been my experience, or else Im just fortunate. Very sad this instrument was destroyed.
00:16 on 06/01/2012
I've had Paypal hang on to money for an electronics sale (Bose sound system) for a month or so. Just so the person could confirm/deny that it worked. In that time, I researched about that sort of B.S. deal and found that some people had received stuff, complained it didn't work (when it did) and got refunded. So the seller is out both the product and the money. Lovely, huh?

Fortch, I got the money but it freaked me out for awhile when they were holding the (desperately needed) funds hostage.
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ProudToBeVeryLiberal
Science is the antidote to the poison of religion
23:30 on 05/01/2012
There is no third-party expert confirmation that the instrument was actually a counterfeit. And what if the buyer destroyed a $100 Chinese violin and then photoshopped the label on? It's not like the seller got the opportunity to see that the actual item she sold was destroyed. This could well be the work of a con artist trying to rip off EBay sellers (and even EBay admitted that many of these sorts of scams originated from Canada, which has more lax Paypal regulations, so that might not be a coincidence at all...) Besides, an antique counterfeit is still an antique and it could well be worth $2,500. It's not like we're talking about a modern counterfeit of a Stradivarius that sold for a million dollars...
23:14 on 07/01/2012
That is certainly a possibility. I had a Chinese buyer purchase from me on ebay, he got the item signed for it , sent me an email saying how much he liked it, then a few weeks later put in a claim with ebay he didn't get it! Ebay froze my payment, fortunately I has saved his emails in receipts, etc , but it still took a few months to get everything unfrozen.