Scottish Referendum: Cameron And Miliband Unite In Fight For Future Of UK

Alex Salmond David Cameron Ed Miliband

The Huffington Post UK   Dina Rickman First Posted: 11/01/12 14:06 GMT Updated: 11/01/12 17:58 GMT

David Cameron and Ed Miliband shared a rare moment of unity in the Commons on Wednesday as they pledged to fight for the future of the United Kingdom.

After the threat of an independent Scotland was raised at PMQs the prime minister said he was "100%" in agreement with the Labour leader that the UK was "stronger together."

"Frankly I'm sad that we are even having this debate because I support the UK so strongly," Cameron told MPs.

And looking to the SNP benches, the prime minister said: "I look forward to having the debate because I think there are too many in the SNP who are happy to talk about the process but not about the substance.

"I sometimes feel that it's not a referendum they want, it's a never-endum."

He added: "I passionately believe in the future of our United Kingdom. I passionately believe we are stronger together rather than breaking apart."

Miliband said his party believed the UK benefitted people in Scotland and the rest of Britain "in equal measure".

"We are stronger together and weaker apart.

"We must make the case for the Union - not simply against separatism, but the positive case about the shared benefits to us all of Scotland's part in the United Kingdom, the shared economic interests, the shared institutions ... and all the shared values we hold together."

But Alex Salmond accused Westminster of trying to interfere in Scottish affairs, and said Cameron should "butt out", and said the prime minister was being Thatcher-esque.

"The prime minister came in with his size 10 boots and started to put all sorts of strings and conditions, and basically wanted to pull the strings of Scotland's referendum."

Salmond said there had been a "huge adverse reaction" north of the border to "the Thatcheresque idea that Downing Street knows best".

SNP MP Angus Robertson said Miliband had "deepened the Labour split" by sharing a platform with the Tories.

"Labour will be misreading and misrepresenting the Scottish people and many in their own party if they continue with this plan to team up with the Tories."

Cameron and Miliband's comments came after Alex Salmond struck a slightly more conciliatory tone regarding a Scottish independence referendum on Wednesday morning.

The SNP first minister suggested there could be further negotiations with Westminster on the mounting constitutional row.

But Salmond insisted there was a case for Scotland being able to hold a referendum without asking London first, and hasn't relaxed his view that the vote should be held in the autumn of 2014.

"The objection is that the prime minister suddenly this week decided to start pulling strings and setting conditions," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

The coalition government admits it is in untested territory, but believes a referendum could be held as early as a year from now.

Ministers have drawn up what's called a Section 30 Order, which would allow Scotland to hold a referendum without asking Westminster for permission, however this order needs to be agreed by both the parliaments in London and Edinburgh first.

However it has attached a rider to the order, suggesting a deadline for the referendum should be agreed before the law is changed.

Scottish ministers have not set out what question - or questions - will be put to voters.

Salmond's spokesman said the "preference" was for a yes or no question on independence, but added they were "entirely open" to people also being given the option to vote for greatly enhanced powers for Holyrood.

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David Cameron and Ed Miliband shared a rare moment of unity in the Commons on Wednesday as they pledged to fight for the future of the United Kingdom. After the threat of an independent Scotland wa...
David Cameron and Ed Miliband shared a rare moment of unity in the Commons on Wednesday as they pledged to fight for the future of the United Kingdom. After the threat of an independent Scotland wa...
 
 
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06:23 PM on 01/12/2012
On the question of taxation as mentioned by WLQ a few comments down, there are so many arguements from both camps on who pays more!! Those of you in Scotland really do need to demand that the propotion of taxation paid by the nations into the UK Pot is given to you honestly and transparently. I don't want to comment on what side the arguement will come out but either way it will help you all to vote with your heads.
04:17 PM on 01/12/2012
Let the good people of Scotland decide for themselves whether they want to stay with the union or go it alone.We all have our own opinions on the subject and they are all different.There are a lot people south of the border would genuinely like to see them stay in the union not because of any financial gain but because they genuinely like Scots people and some are related by blood and culture to them. Any crude comments that are made towards Scots people will only make the situation worse.It is their choice anyway. There should not be any outside interference from any country including countries outside of the UK. Good luck to them whatever they decide to do.
06:29 PM on 01/12/2012
Agree wholeheartledly wxyzabba. Too many people on these boards are seeing the desire for Scottish independance as some sort of anti English crusade, which couldn't be further from the truth. They just want to control their own destiny and future and are willing to take ownership of thier decision be it right or wrong to split from the UK. Sadly too many narrow minded people are just looking for a chance to snipe and provoke arguement. Personally I wish them luck, no matter what the outcome and will always view Scotland as a close neighbour and friend of England. I'm going to fan you!
07:14 PM on 01/12/2012
You said...Personally I wish them luck, no matter what the outcome and will always view Scotland as a close neighbour and friend of England. I'm going to fan you!

If our history had been in reverse. ie we had trampled over the english. Imposed our laws and terrible kings and queens systems over yous. Maybe your mind set would be different
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Allyb999
07:46 PM on 01/12/2012
MOK you are only saying that because you got invited up to share a bottle of malt whisky HaHa
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06:39 PM on 01/12/2012
Thank you for the common sense in your post. It's refreshing to see a new contributor join the discussion without axe-grinding or negativity being their motive.
Fan #2 right here.
07:58 PM on 01/12/2012
Your very welcome Friend
03:37 PM on 01/12/2012
Too many unanswered questions.

Whats happens to NHS? Would we have our own army and navy? What happens when the oil runs out, do we go cap in hand to Westminter and ask for more? Would we need our own government bodies to look after things like DVLA. Would we need to pay more tax to pay for all these?

I agree that all in all it would be good if we had our independance but it's no more than a romantic/patriotic notion. Just beacuse we are part of the UK doesnt mean that we are any less scottish.

As I said there are too many unanswered question and too many people wanting independance based on ignorance.
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Allyb999
03:58 PM on 01/12/2012
That is why Westminster wants all this rushed through, not enough time to inform the people of all the facts. When we hold the referendum in 2014, all will have a chance to ask the questions and get the facts. This is the only way that the people of Scotland can make an informed decision on the future of Scotland. As for many wanting independence based on ignorance, I think if you actually spend some time researching you will find numerous papers devoted entirely to this subject. Some pro Independence some pro Union, it is then up to you what you decide is best for yourself and for Scotland.
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05:04 PM on 01/12/2012
Hi there.. I'll try to answer those questions for you.
The NHS is Scotland is devolved so we already run it and pay for it. It is in better shape and in safer hands than south of the border.
We would have a Scottish based defence force. On independence we would have the bases already here and a share of the movable assets from current UK forces. This would form the basis of our forces and would be adapted to meet our needs.
When the oil runs out it runs out. We would'nt need to go cap in hand to anybody as we have plentiful other resources to fund our tax base and secure economic development of our nation.
We would need to set up a Scottish equivalent of DVLA and other bodies, but as we already contribute more than our fair share toward the UK treasury I see no major problem with doing that. In some ways there would be additional benefits as there would be jobs created to staff these organisations.
There is no reason to worry about taxes to pay for any of these as we already pay a higher proportion of taxes into the UK pot than our population would indicate should.

The unanswered questions you mention can only be answered if we ask them. We should be able to ask the questions and compare the difference between what our position would be if we remain in or depart from the union.
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BuxtonBlueCat
Most beautiful cat in the world! :)
09:48 AM on 01/12/2012
'the prime minister said: "I look forward to having the debate because I think there are too many in the SNP who are happy to talk about the process but not about the substance.' Yes, how I agree with this statement. There should be a whole UK debate on how it will affect England / Wales/ N.Ireland if/when devolution goes through. Information should be publicly available on how the SNP propose to fund their proposals. Are those Scots not in agreement with SNP going to be subjected to the bully boys of AS? If the vote is an overwhelming 'no', AS will no doubt argue that it has been tampered with; so more expense having another independent country monitor the honesty of the vote. The expense to the taxpayer goes On ... and On and On!
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10:33 AM on 01/12/2012
Unless you are a Scottish taxpayer you won't be paying for any consultation or referendum expenses. They are Scotland's business and will be funded from Scotland's governmental budget which, as you will know by now, represents only a portion of Scotland's contribution to the UK pot.
You also know that the process is Scotland's business and nobody else's. I realise that you don't like that, but sadly for you, you will have to lump it. You have no choice in the matter.
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BuxtonBlueCat
Most beautiful cat in the world! :)
10:58 AM on 01/12/2012
Whatever choice(s) there are will be decided by central government. NB: still ploughing through the recommended reading!
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Allyb999
11:30 AM on 01/12/2012
So on one point you want UK wide debates on Scotland Independence, then you want to know how it is going to affect you, then you complain about how much it is going to cost?

Ok lets blindfold a man in the street ask him to pick one of two tickets one for independence and one for staying with the union. That cheap enough for you?

Can you explain the bully boy tactics of AS?
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BuxtonBlueCat
Most beautiful cat in the world! :)
12:41 PM on 01/12/2012
I think you have chosen the perfect question here - stay or go; the way it is being handled certainly looks like a game of blind man's bluff. Re bullyboy tactics - AS accuses DC of wanting to dictate what and how the referendum should be dealt with, when all the man is doing is following the legalities; AS has not achieved independence yet. He comes across as a very aggressive peronality in the media and this can be interpreted that such arrogance will follow in meetings. How many SNPs would dare cross this man with an opinion of their own I wonder.
08:46 AM on 01/12/2012
Why don't they start a dialogue in public on this with a series of debates on television and radio between the SNP and the others. Then we could all hear the arguments and the implications of this.
09:42 AM on 01/12/2012
Because the Biased Broadcasting Corporation would sooner die in a ditch than give a minute of air time to the SNP if they can in any way whatsoever avoid it. Including 'technical hitches' and 'power failures' or 'scheduling pressures (appears at 5 to midnight)

Good idea but the 'national' broadcaster uses Scots license fee money to churn out anti-Scots propaganda in favor of the Union. Watch carefully and you will see.
09:54 AM on 01/12/2012
Does a national debate have to be hosted by the BBC? Why not have the debate televised nationally by STV? Just a thought
10:19 AM on 01/12/2012
You have to bear in mind that a broadcaster will always better represent the majority of population - I'm not saying this is right but it is a fact of life. Here in Kent when we recieved the same BBC TV region as London we hardly, if ever rated a mention on Newsroom South East. Finally we were given, along with Sussex our own TV region and are now much much better served by South East Today. The same happened in the early 80's when most of Kent and parts of Sussex were moved out of the London ITV region and transferred to the south (then TVS and now Meridian), and further split and served as a separate region from the rest of the south. I would like to think the BBC wouldn't be biased but sadly you are right!
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05:14 PM on 01/12/2012
You've missed a very important point here. The debate as you suggest it would be a 3 against 1 set up with three opposition parties all demanding representation to voice one opinion across the table from one SNP representative voicing the case for independence. Blatantly unfair as this should not be a party political debate. It should be a Pro v Con debate with equal numbers of representatives giving equal time to both sides of the argument. It isn't an election, its a referendum on the constitutional future of a nation and both sides of the argument MUST receive equal opportunities to present their case fairly and without any broadcasters' editorial interference. That immediately counts the BBC out as their Scottish output is hopelessly biased in the anti-independence direction.
01:48 AM on 01/13/2012
Thanks West Lothian Questioner. I think that is exactly what I was suggesting. Not a political party based debate but a pro side and an anti side. In the past when we have had these type of issues debated political parties with the same stance have all come together to one side or the other and I would expect the same here. Pro and Con debate on a neutral TV station.
08:22 AM on 01/12/2012
Cameron's childish brinkmanship. Again.

Is he really that busy saving his Eton mates country piles and cash mountains, that he cannot do his job for the country?

I know his salary means nought. But what about some pride in his job? A legacy. Specific achievements versus wafflegab Big Society and such.
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John michael Adams
01:16 AM on 01/12/2012
if snp doesnt want to be intefered by westminster then vote for the referendum now. Why would anyone with common sense accept a group of people whining about discrimination but still want to continue their discrimination until 2014?
and almost all of the uk are sick of this referendum already.
so, Put Up or Shut Up.
02:30 AM on 01/12/2012
Long may the debate continue until sense wins over the nonsense issuing forth from the temporary custodians of the Holyrood council flats.
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Allyb999
09:18 AM on 01/12/2012
See yet again all you can do is be insulting.
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Allyb999
09:17 AM on 01/12/2012
The thing is the SNP promised Scotland a referendum during the second half of their elected term. I know it is a concept that most political parties don't understand, the SNP want to keep their promise. As for westminster interference, well are they not the ones trying to dictate the terms?
11:46 PM on 01/11/2012
Great! So long as we do not have to buy Scots loyalty to the Union.......
11:00 PM on 01/11/2012
alex should put it to cameron and milliband...step outside and we can sort things out celtic style and i'll put you both on the deck...anglos got too much mouth
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John michael Adams
01:20 AM on 01/12/2012
or you might join the IRA, the celtic style.
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10:38 AM on 01/12/2012
Stupid and insulting remark.
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10:14 PM on 01/11/2012
Both Cameron and Miliban are against it. Phew, if Miliban supported the break up, Scotland would be doomed as Pvt Fraser would say. Miliban has a jinx factor like Frank Spencer or Mr Bean. If Scotland became Independent I wonder if we would have an English 1st Minister?
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10:17 PM on 01/11/2012
Its possible that we could have an English born First Minister. We already have an English born cabinet minister, so I see no reason why not.
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Raymond Soltysek
12:01 AM on 01/12/2012
Why not have a foreigner in the Scottish cabinet? We Scots are much less xenophobic about such things...
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10:26 PM on 01/11/2012
Thanks, for confirmation. Ask because out of the last 3 UK Prime Ministers 2 have been Scots. OMG that means Tony Blair could be a Scottish 1st minister
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10:39 PM on 01/11/2012
The 2 Scots PMs you mention were not PM because of being Scots. They were PMs because the UK Labour party elected them to the post of party leader. If a better candidate who was Welsh or English or whatever had been standing, then that person would have been the PM in due turn.

In theory TB could become First Minister if he came back to live in Scotland and joined the re-formed Labour(or whatever it became) party , then managed to win a seat in Holyrood as leader of the victorious party in an election. Thats a four part process and to be honest I can't see any of them ever happening, for which I am hugely grateful ;-)
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John michael Adams
01:21 AM on 01/12/2012
the 2 of the 3 UK ministers are British who apparently born in Scotland. Correct your terms.
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mozartmaid2
opera singing fighter for truth
10:13 PM on 01/11/2012
Just a reminder of the Jacobite history --

To the sons of the men who ne'er flinched from their faith--

They stood to the last, and, when standing was o'er,
All sullen and silent they dropped the claymore,
And yielded, indignant, their necks to the blow,
Their homes to the flame, and their lands to the foe.

Then flowed the wild strains to the rock and the wood,
Of the fall of the mighty, the Royal, and good ;
So plaintive and sweet, all were moved by the tone,
From the child of the cot to the prince on the throne:
The fetes of the heroes they learned to deplore,
For our rocks never echoed such wailings before….

When kings were degraded, to ruffians a prey,
Or driven from the thrones of their fathers away,
Who then could sit silent ? Alas for the while,
That now there are myriads, the worst of the vile,
Whose highest ambition is bent to defame
All greatness and sovereignty, order and name
But whether in high or in humble degree,
My country, such spirit dishonours not thee! …

And now, Noble Highlanders, sons of the North,
That land of blue mountains, and birth-place of worth,
These strains that were chanted o'er many a wild heath, .
These strains of your fathers, to you I bequeath ;
And with them this blessing, the best that I may:
O, long be you loyal and gallant as they!

James Hogg, from Jacobite Relics, 1817
12:52 AM on 01/12/2012
What a dog this Hogg is! There are none so miserable as a conquered race, however, we have all grown a lot since this was written and hopefully not regress to what was but live with what is and look forward to what might and with luck, will be.

Emillio11 January 2012
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Allyb999
09:42 AM on 01/12/2012
Was it not you calling folks who disagree with your views a Jacobite minded? so you obviously have not grown a lot since this was written.
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mozartmaid2
opera singing fighter for truth
12:39 PM on 01/12/2012
There was a removed comment by John Michael Adams that I'd like to reply to --

I did not mean to stir such hatred. First, I'm an American, merely fascinated with Scottish history. I simply find it interesting that the desire to be separate from England is so strong after all these years. I apologize for stepping on any toes...
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05:21 PM on 01/12/2012
There are many toes around here that need stepping on from time to time. Don't let bile spite and ignorance force you out of the discussions. You have an internet connection therefore you have all you need to be free to contribute.
A' the best :-)
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mozartmaid2
opera singing fighter for truth
10:01 PM on 01/11/2012
Very 18th century of you Scotland -- isn't it a little late to try to secede?

But maybe it really has been brewing for all these hundreds of years and they've finally got up the gumption again to make it a reality... I remember being in Scotland a few years ago, and I had some Scottish pounds, but was heading back into England. I asked a little old shopkeeper in Oban if the Scottish pounds would still be good in England. With a thick Scots accent she answered, "Weel, if they dinna take it lassie, we'll have to start another Braveheart!!"
12:56 AM on 01/12/2012
Excellent Mozart, I always appreciate a bit of female scottish humour, the lads are so dour, their laments would put a wild haggis off it's porridge.
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BeeJayCeee
I still loathe Thatcher
01:24 AM on 01/12/2012
Slime back under your rock, bigot.
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mater
mater
08:53 PM on 01/11/2012
Would really like to hear some chatter on this issue from abroad. Thanks.
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WillieBlack
09:18 PM on 01/11/2012
Why?
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mater
mater
09:21 PM on 01/11/2012
Because I enjoy many things Scottish.
12:57 AM on 01/12/2012
ROLF.
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Gayle Force Winds
Want some wine with that micro-bio?
09:32 PM on 01/11/2012
Well, as I'm a broad, I'll gladly chatter. Scotland can decide for itself. There.
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mater
mater
09:36 PM on 01/11/2012
Very clever, is that all?
08:39 PM on 01/11/2012
While were on the break up subject can we carry it a bit further always fancied residing in the greater republic of mancunia
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Allyb999
09:00 PM on 01/11/2012
Go for it, then you can come visit up in Scotland. No need for passports for our friends from the Greater Republic of Mancunia. ;-)
09:13 AM on 01/12/2012
If we get a Republic of Kent, can we pop up and see you all too?
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Allyb999
09:27 AM on 01/12/2012
Any time MOK, might even give you a couple of nips of some lovely malt whisky.
09:36 AM on 01/12/2012
I take it you will have finally resolved a united front - If you 'Kent's' sort out whether you are a man of Kent - or a Kentish man!
(Only joking - most welcome!)
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Allyb999
08:08 PM on 01/11/2012
Loved Mr Camerons speech "Frankly I'm sad that we are even having this debate because I support the UK so strongly," Cameron told MPs. Will someone please tell Mr Cameron there is more to the UK than London.
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08:31 PM on 01/11/2012
With apologies to M. Python for the paraphrasing...
"you try telling that to the tories today.... and.. they wont believe you.. no.. they wont believe you."
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John michael Adams
01:25 AM on 01/12/2012
and there is more to the UK than scotland.
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Allyb999
01:39 AM on 01/12/2012
Jesus christ westminster has only just realised there is a Scotland