Council Prayers Ruling Will Be Overturned, Christians Pledge

Council Prayers Meeting

First Posted: 11/02/2012 07:27 Updated: 11/02/2012 07:27   PA

Christians and community figures have vowed that a High Court decision to outlaw the centuries-old tradition of formal prayers being said at the start of local council meetings is not be the end of the matter.

Mr Justice Ouseley, sitting in London, ruled local councils lacked power under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972 to hold prayers "as part of a formal local authority meeting".

However it was lawful for prayers to be said "in a local authority chamber before a formal meeting", provided councillors were not "formally summoned to attend".

John Breeds, mayor of Rye in East Sussex, said he expects councillors at Rye Town Council will now just say prayers ahead of their meetings.

He said: "We will try to find a way around it. It doesn't actually have to be part of the meeting. Presumably if we can't say prayers at the beginning of the meeting proper, then we will just have to say them beforehand.

"It's been a tradition for hundreds of years, it's part of the whole sense of ceremony, with the robes and mace and chains, so I think it's a real shame."

The mayor of Folkestone in Kent, Sue Wallace, said she was "astounded" by the decision.

She said: "I think it should be down to the individual to decide. Soon we won't be able to decide anything.

"I'm sure there are lots of other councils all over the country that will feel the same way as I do."

The High Court ruling came about after the National Secular Society and an atheist ex-councillor argued that Bideford town council in Devon was acting unlawfully by putting prayer on meeting agendas.

It is understood the ritual dates back in Bideford to the days of Queen Elizabeth I, and the council has recently voted twice to retain it.
Communities Secretary Eric Pickles described the decision as "illiberal and intolerant".

He said: "It's been part of our rights, our ancestors have fought long and hard for the ability to have free religious assembly.

"This still remains a Christian country. We have an established Church of which the Queen's the head, these kind of ceremonies have been taking place for a long time and I think it's only right they should be respected.

"I think there's nothing wrong in standing up for part of British traditional Christian culture, as indeed I think it's absolutely right that we should stand up to defend British Muslims.

"We've stood for religious tolerance in this country, and it does seem to me that this judgment is a deeply illiberal and intolerant judgment."

Harry Greenway, a former Tory MP and ex-chairman of the National Prayer Breakfast, said: "I trust this ruling will be quickly reversed. If people do not want to attend prayers of this nature, they can stay away instead of meddling and busybodying with other people's beliefs.

"If they did away with daily prayers in the House of Commons - and I would not be surprised if an attempt is made to do that - there would be a revolution."

Sir Merrick Cockell, chairman of the Local Government Association, said it was likely the ruling would be overridden.

But the judgment affecting councils all over England and Wales was welcomed by the National Secular Society as "an important victory for everyone who wants a secular society that neither advantages nor disadvantages people because of their religion or lack of it".

Keith Porteous Wood, the society's executive director, said: "There is no longer a respectable argument that Britain is a solely Christian nation, or even a religious one."

He said: "An increasing proportion of people are not practising any religion, and minority faiths are growing in number and influence."
Prayers had been the cause of tension in a number of multi-faith local councils.

The legal challenge was launched in July 2010 after the National Secular Society was contacted by Clive Bone - a non-believer who was then a Bideford councillor.

Mr Bone later left the council because of its "refusal to adjust" its prayer policy, which caused him embarrassment.

In court, the secularists' argument included assertions that prayers breached equality laws and articles nine and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protect an individual's right to freedom of conscience and not to face discrimination.

But the judge rejected the human rights and equality challenges. He ruled formal prayers were only unlawful because the council lacked the statutory power to put them on the agenda.

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Christians and community figures have vowed that a High Court decision to outlaw the centuries-old tradition of formal prayers being said at the start of local council meetings is not be the end of th...
Christians and community figures have vowed that a High Court decision to outlaw the centuries-old tradition of formal prayers being said at the start of local council meetings is not be the end of th...
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Yorksgal
'Conservative Christian' is a complete oxymoron.
12:49 AM on 02/14/2012
It's ridiculous - those who want to can say a prayer - outside/before the ceremony. Or is that time too valuable?

Go to church people - say your prayers there, not during your local council meetings.
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Compassionnotreligion
Be awed & humbled by nature & empathy -not Juju.
06:33 PM on 02/13/2012
These grown men and women, elected to a position of local councilor - praying to a non-existent deity for guidance on policy making, deserves ridicule. Simple as that. And all of them accepting oaths taken on the buybull as a supposed guarantee of honesty?!

If they must give into their personal delusions then have the good grace to do it on your own time and in private - not whilst being paid, and not foisting your juju on others.
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10:11 PM on 02/12/2012
After some more consideration on the subject I now think the Christians who are complaining should be allowed their prayers before every council meeting....As long as when they turn up for Church on Sunday they are prepared to sit through a long, tediously borring, and completly irrelevant Council meeting in their church before hand....with a bit of luck it will be over by Monday morning by which time the congregation will have completely lost their will to live....this will soon teach them the value of keeping church and state business seperate and in the appropriate places!!!.
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jacksdad41
Quant Je Puis
10:20 PM on 02/12/2012
They already do - it is called the sermon
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10:34 PM on 02/12/2012
jacksdad41
Good point, It's back to the drawing board for me on this one now I fear!
08:43 PM on 02/12/2012
The Romans spent 450 years killing christians in the hope of wiping out christianity and failed.
The Chinese tried to supress christianity and now there are more people going to church in China than the whole of europe.God will always get what He wants in His own time and no amount of nonsence by any seculat person or group will ever change that
07:49 PM on 02/12/2012
"We will try to find a way around it.

How about praying in a church beforehand, the whole UK is littered with redundant churches, they won't need to look far for one.
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Ppenguinator
Life's too imprtant to be taken seriously.
06:51 PM on 02/12/2012
If the Councillors were really bothered about their prayers, they'd be more than happy to say them before the meeting, on their own time. Since they're not happy with that compromise, you have to suspect that they don't care enough about them to arrive a few minutes early to their meeting.
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jessjesskk
Benevolent Zombie Power
05:17 PM on 02/12/2012
By definition, tradition is what you do because people have always done it, without knowing why.
For example, for century, the tradition was to obey the king / duke / ..., the tradition was that women had no rights, that individuals had no rights, ...

that's a lot of traditions that we've killed. Maybe it's time to kill some more useless baseless traditions.
04:10 PM on 02/12/2012
Just put your prayer mat down pointing to the east. Problem solved.
04:09 PM on 02/12/2012
Shouldn't Mr. Pickles change the name of his post to Minister For The Christian Community -And Not for Anyone Else?
03:21 PM on 02/12/2012
Religion is a personal choice, a personal belief and should be kept to personal times, in my opinion. It has no place in a modern work environment. A mandatory prayer before a council meeting is very old-fashioned and not conducive to current working practices. If someone wants to pray, they should do this is their own time. Faith should not be pressed onto others of different or no belief. I account this to all religion, not just Christianity. Everyone has an equal right to believe whatever gives them comfort or not to believe at all. It has nothing to do with work or the active working practices of a local council.

Just because something has been done for a very long time, does not mean it has a need to continue. Tradition is a wonderful thing and endures because it appeals to many, but times change, societies grow and people move on. In a secular society such as this, we should not be imposing beliefs on anyone and whilst I don't think this is really an issue for a court, I do think that it is something which should be dropped from within the council itself. I think it's being purposefully inflammatory to take something like this to court and force people's hands when it could have been quietly removed without any media attention at all.
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mokgee
Sabu.Satsang, Samsara, Solitude...
02:43 PM on 02/12/2012
After all these years why now is praying illegal. Have the joke law society only just realised they have been praying illegally. No, this instigation is far more sinster, for me, this is just another reason to erase our culture, heritage, and history, with our soveriegnty also..Are all the schools in Britain breaking the law, for conducting prayers in assembly, never in a million years. This is all to do with ethnicity, and the demands they are making..Now aint that the truth,,yes it is, and for no other reasons.....Broken Britain,,Yes indeed,,Divided Britain, most definitely..Almost finished Britain,,absolutely....
03:50 PM on 02/12/2012
Prayers before council meetings won't be illegal, prayers after council meetings won't be illegal. It is just that prayers being on the agenda of council meetings is no longer legal. Council meetings aren't held in church, why should there be prayers in council meetings.

The practice of starting council meetings with Christian prayers descrimates against councillors of no faith and other faiths. A strange attitude for a body that should represent all the community.
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mokgee
Sabu.Satsang, Samsara, Solitude...
04:13 PM on 02/12/2012
Get your point,,daveyb0927,,but you are missing mine..Why all of a sudden now...
09:12 PM on 02/12/2012
once again the "christians" think they are above the law !! demanding this ban to be overturned ?? WHAT THE HELL has religion got to do with ANY council meeting other than if it concerns religion in the first place,if these religious nuts want to pray thats no problem,BUT do it in their own time NOT in working paid time, what they do in their own time is up to them,just don"t expect to be paid for it,& don"t expect the non believer to attend your fairy tale beliefs !! & lastly learn to accept the law of the land like EVERYONE ELSE !! we all disagree with some laws but HAVE to accept them so learn to do the same
concodtob
16 stone athlete and intellectual
09:31 PM on 02/12/2012
Too right,have you noticed how these left-wing organisations only go after Christians and not the other religions?Whenever someone speaks up for Christians they are condemned.Where were these so-called anti-religious societies when the hate-filled Jihadist's marched in London after the cartoons publications?They protested against the visit of the pope.

Truth is,the left which is entrenched in our institutions including the Judiciary are embarking on a dismantlement of British traditions.The Human rights act is testament to this and the number of judges who subscribe to it.Political correctness is being used to ruin our traditions but supports and encourages other religons and Traditions by the same token.

Just look at the number of times loony left-wing councils and schools who ban or attempt to ban British traditions.Christmas,Hymns at CofE schools,ST George flags,Nursery rhymes, etc...etc...etc...I'm not religious myself but i support British traditions which are becoming increasingly under threat from the hypocritical lefties.
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mokgee
Sabu.Satsang, Samsara, Solitude...
07:22 AM on 02/13/2012
Good old truth from the vision of common sense,,concodtob..For the many who make their puritanical comments, they don't live in the real world, or even near it..They should go to Rochdale in Manchester, and witness the black gangs going aroung seeking out the white indigenous people..Once these people get caught up in reality, it will terrify them beyond belief, there are other towns and cities in Englang, experiencing the very same traumatic exp[eriences...
11:40 AM on 02/12/2012
simple - just pray before you attend the meetings (in your own time) - no one has a problem with that. If you are relying on divine intervention to make decisions that affect the electorate then frankly I have a big problem with that
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Thismortalcoil
Science is the poetry of reality
05:26 PM on 02/12/2012
They were offered the option of praying in their own time and refused. They only want to pray when they are being funded by the tax payer to do so.
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10:42 PM on 02/12/2012
How so?
09:39 AM on 02/12/2012
To sum it up, it will take more than prayers
too sort out this countries ill,s.
wes
08:34 AM on 02/12/2012
Why is it in this country the tail keeps wagging the dog, every time some halfwhit comes up with some brain dead idea the judges jump on the bandwaggon and rule in their favour.This is a Christian country and has been for hundreds of years what right has this bone head judge got to say that the Christian religion cannot be practicted except in private. I would suggest this overpayed uneducated twit be sent to a country not christian and try the same rulling there then see how long this judge would last.
03:57 PM on 02/12/2012
Britain WAS a Christian country. Christians are now in a minority, but due to historical inertia still maintain a stranglehold on postions of power.

Chiristianity is still the religion of rule but no longer a religion of mass belief. Poland under Gomulka and Jaruzelski was described as a "Communist " because it was the ideology of the ruling class. As events proved, it was not the faith of the Polish people.
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reasonshouldrule
08:28 PM on 02/12/2012
It matters not whether Britain is a Christian country or some other kind of country. Religion should be practiced by Churches/Synagogues/Mosques and their members, not by the State.

You need to study a bit more of history to get a more informed perspective. And as for your final sentence, YOU might be right at home in some of those countries you are referring to.