Scottish Independence Referendum: Westminster Considers Handing Powers To Salmond To Trigger Vote

Scotland Independence Referendum Unlawful

The Huffington Post UK   First Posted: 10/01/12 17:09 GMT Updated: 10/01/12 20:51 GMT

London and Edinburgh appear to be heading towards a major constitutional row over the date of a Scottish independence referendum, after the coalition government declared that Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond couldn't lawfully hold a vote on the matter himself.

After taking legal advice the government in London believes that matters pertaining to a breakup of the UK are "reserved matters", and as such remain under the jurisdiction of the Westminster parliament.

Westminister is considering giving greater powers to the Scottish Parliament so it can hold a referendum on independence, but the conciliatory gesture comes with a sting in the tail - the government in London wants to only change the law if Salmond agrees on a date by which the referendum would be held. The latest gamble by David Cameron risks antagonising nationalists in Scotland, as well as raising concerns among unionists.

Shortly after the government announced the current unlawfulness of Scotland unilaterally holding its own referendum, Scotland's Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced that the SNP wanted to hold a vote on independence in autumn 2014.

A consultation process now underway is likely to spark tensions between London and Edinburgh over when the vote will be held, with David Cameron expected to come under pressure to allow the SNP to have the referendum powers alongside a polling date of its own choosing.

But on Tuesday evening Scottish Secretary Michael Moore hinted the coalition would push for an earlier vote as a condition of changing the law, saying while he would "not stand in the way of a referendum on independence", neither would he "stand on the sidelines and let uncertainty continue".

The Westminster government clearly believes it has leverage over the SNP in attempting to get the referendum held as soon as possible, long before the SNP's preferred date of 2014.

Michael Moore told the Commons: "As a Scot, I think it is vital that the Scottish people make a clear decision about our future with the United Kingdom, a decision made in Scotland by the people of Scotland.

"But at present there is a lack of clarity about the referendum, its outcome, and what the implications of that outcome would be, all of which creates economic uncertainty. That is bad for jobs and investment.

"This is not an issue that can be ducked. To legislate for a referendum on independence the Scottish parliament must have the legal power to do so. It is the Government's clear view that the Scottish parliament does not have that legal power."

Another caveat in the coalition's plan to resolve the legal deadlock is that there can only be one question - with a simple "yes/no" answer - on any referendum ballot paper, and any separate referendum on merely introducing greater devolution for Scotland couldn't happen on the same day.

See also: The background behind David Cameron's high-stakes gamble

The latest step on the path towards a referendum suggests behind the scenes the two governments have been unable to reach an agreed position. The disclosures today can be seen as the London government acting unilaterally to head-off a potential constitutional crisis and take the initiative on getting an early referendum.

If Scotland attempted to hold a referendum unilaterally under the current legal framework, it would have no legal weight whatsoever, the equivalent of an ordinary opinion poll.

David Cameron escalated his impasse with Alex Salmond on Sunday when he called for a referendum to be held within 18 months, claiming further delays would damage the economy.

Whitehall believes holding a referendum with more than two potential answers on the ballot paper would muddy the waters of an independence vote, which it considers too important to be considered alongside anything else.

The Westminster government has climbed down from a previous requirement that a referendum should be happen within eighteen months, but in effect is using claims that the law needs to be changed to insist upon a deadline. Currently no date for a referendum has been suggested, but the government at Westminster is indicating that they would still like it to be held as soon as possible.

Ministers in London say a deadline for any referendum would be decided in consultation between the two governments in the coming months, in a distinct blurring between the legal and the political dimensions to the controversy.

SNP sources believe that the decision to attach a deadline for the referendum to a change in the law came at the behest of George Osborne, who is chairing a Cabinet committee on Scotland's constitutional future.

Scottish National Party MPs at Westminster are clearly delighted at the latest impasse, believing it is causing a surge in new members joining the SNP in Scotland.

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie has said it is important the future of Scotland is kept out of the courts.

“To avoid the strong possibility of a legal challenge some cooperation with Westminster is essential so that a referendum has the legal force and effect necessary to be seen as legitimate," he said.

“We do not want a situation to arise when this issue of vital importance to the future direction of Scotland is finally decided in the courts rather than at the ballot box.”

The coalition government admits it is in untested territory, but believes a referendum could be held as early as a year from now, but some legal changes will need to be made first.

Ministers have drawn up what's called a Section 30 Order, which would allow Scotland to hold a referendum without asking Westminster for permission, however this order needs to be agreed by both the parliaments in London and Edinburgh first.

The disclosures suggest that the Scottish National Party's manifesto pledge last year to hold a referendum had no basis in law, because the terms drawn up in the creation of the Scottish Parliament did not give the Scottish government powers to hold one.

The Scottish Office says any referendum on independence would have the specific purpose of intending for Scotland leaving the union. The government believes this is the case because the SNP government have made it clear they want this to happen. Because of this the government in London believes it must be a "reserved matter".

The government in London is not interested in whether any referendum would be merely advisory or legally binding. It believes that unless the Scottish Parliament's powers are changed, no referendum would be considered legal.

The Scottish Advocate General will address a meeting of lawyers in Glasgow next Friday to outline his legal position relating to these changes.

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London and Edinburgh appear to be heading towards a major constitutional row over the date of a Scottish independence referendum, after the coalition government declared that Scottish First Minister A...
London and Edinburgh appear to be heading towards a major constitutional row over the date of a Scottish independence referendum, after the coalition government declared that Scottish First Minister A...
 
 
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07:14 PM on 01/27/2012
With Scotland's Embarresme­­nt Of Wealth Pouring Into an Edinburgh Treaury form her Energy Sectors be they Renewables /Gas or Oil from The North Sea Scottish Sector along with all Scotland's other Industries be they Tourism or Whisky or Electronic­­s to mention a few. How do those of a Keep London Rule persuasion Foresee The Largest Nation in These Isles Of Britain managing to look after her 55 million or So Souls. Homeless,E­­lderly, Jobless and Infirm will all have to be Looked after.
Many like to Hypothesis­­e regarding Scotland's Doom Laden Future under Edinburgh Rule but perhaps the Real Elephant in The Room is 'Will England be Bankrupt Without Scotland?.
Hard facts and Figures would be appreciate­­d here. This is not a Question to Bait Those of a London Rule persuasion but a Question that Really needs answering.
09:09 AM on 01/12/2012
It works like this ,if Scotland gets independence England looses the oil revenue and then all off that tax revenue from the entire country ,so England just goes broke ,simple !
10:38 PM on 01/11/2012
BeeJayCee is a SNP Activist,,,anything she states should be taken with a pinch of salt and then ask her to state the truth,,,BeeJayCee has several other names on Huffington so be aware of this fact.
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carneliancrystal
Do I believe all the propaganda of course I do
12:38 PM on 01/11/2012
Bee jay Cant play anymore got to go put cheques into a subsidiary bank of RBS, which the English had to bail out and now own. So just play quietly on your own and dont be getting into mischief upsetting people while I'm away, keeping people in Scotland in a job. Have a nice afternoon jock.
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Allyb999
07:27 PM on 01/11/2012
The English own? surely you mean the Union own.
KenInd
We too shall get through this.....
08:45 AM on 01/11/2012
Funny. None of my American neighbo(u)rs of Scottish descent give to$$ about this.

Nor do they particularly eat porridge with salt, toss cabers, wear kilts or eat haggis.

They have moved on from this ancient snit.
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Allyb999
09:59 AM on 01/11/2012
So they are American not Scottish, why would they be bothered they would have no say on this anyway. Obviously you thought you would type some rubbish just to see your name up on the list. By the way have you moved on from this ancient stuff .... no I am still pretty sure Americans still celebrate Indendance Day?
KenInd
We too shall get through this.....
02:00 PM on 01/11/2012
No...but we celebrate IndePEndence Day. Tell me, have the Scots proposed a Declaration of Independence, a Constitution and a Bill of Rights? The latter two were never written in Westminster; I warmly recommend Scotland craft their own.

I presume an independent Scotland will withdraw from the Commonwealth of Nations - or will it still remain under the Crown?
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08:26 AM on 01/11/2012
so much for a debate on independance, all i read on here is the english bitching and putting down us scots.......bullying and borderline racism.....and you wonder why we want our own country
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carneliancrystal
Do I believe all the propaganda of course I do
11:00 AM on 01/11/2012
Stop moaning have your vote now and take it? Oh sorry you havent enough to vote yes at the moment how sad !!!
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Allyb999
11:39 AM on 01/11/2012
We the Scottish people will have our vote when our majority government decides, thank you very much.
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11:40 AM on 01/11/2012
typical answer from an uneducated ignoramus 8)
07:51 AM on 01/11/2012
I am totally sick of all this witter - call his bluff and go ahead BUT

Forget this project building the new railway - use all the effort to rebuild hadrian's wall to 20 feet high with guard posts and minefields on the northern side (nobody would want to go south>north)

Fund it by selling off all the assets owned by RBS and Bank of Scotland both of which are owned by the uk taxpayer - recover the 30 billion used to rescue them

Years ago in a massive attempt to win votes the government moved many civil service operations north to create jobs - all these should be repatriated

Most of the uk tax and social security is managed in scotland now and the efficiency has failed - i work in this field and am sick of having to deal with aggressive and unreasonable celts,many i cannot understand due to their accent - if i ask politely if they could speak slower and more clearly i am usually accued of being racist

Oh and i am nearly 70 years old - when i need care it will cost me £1000. a week until i have sold everything i own and am down to £17500 at which time i will be dumped in an unsuitabe place to die - if i am in scotland i can continue to live in my castle and have all my expenses and care costs paid for - out of the tax my poor relative
09:00 AM on 01/11/2012
I think you will find that the line of Hadrian's Wall would cut off a large part of Northumbria from England. Better offer them a vote on which side of the border they wish to stay before you build it.
07:29 AM on 01/11/2012
AS believes as do many commentators that the UK economic situation will get MUCH worse in the next 2 or 3 years and that he can ride to independance on a wave of disgust at the failure of the ConDemnation to protect living standards.
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Allyb999
10:53 AM on 01/11/2012
As the conlibs did on a wave of disgust at the failure of Labour? That is exactly how politics work.
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mokgee
Sabu.Satsang, Samsara, Solitude...
07:20 AM on 01/11/2012
It all depends whether the Scots, want to remain part of the destructive EU, or not. Should they not then go for it, because it seems that the EU have achieved their goal of breaking up the Union of Great Britain, the old divide and conquer rules of engagement. Aided of course by their puppets in Wetminster. The unon should have remained solid, unbreakable, but not so, each country had the taste of the Lira, more prosperity so to speak, now look at the mess we are all in. Cameron is in a panic, this is why he is attempting to bully Alex Salmond, into submission. Well Cameron, had better listen to the people of Britain, because the majority want out of the EU, we have seen and heard enough of their tactics. Then there are the scaremongers creating panic for the people. and the tragedy it would be should we leave, then let's get on with it and get out. We will make our own beds and lay on them, we do not want to be bullied, threatened or dictated to by any foreign junta..Two world wars, shows our determination and resolve, we survived those, we will survive anything....
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whapgra
07:00 AM on 01/11/2012
In the UK England more or less constantly makes up 84% of the total population, Wales around 5%, Scotland roughly 8.5 %, and Northern Ireland (since 1921) less than 3%. so do the math how will scotland fund itself. with no more tax handouts from the rest of the UK. could be no more free prescriptions, tuition fees would have to go up, care in the community would be affected, and if Scvotland atained independence would thery also be leaving the EU as they would no longer be part of the UKs membership, and as everyone knows non members of the EU require a visa to work in the UK. Independence would cause the scots a lot of broblems. just an observation if salmond didnt shave for a few days , put an bandage around his head put on a tatty suit and he would look like Rab C Nesbit,
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BeeJayCeee
I still loathe Thatcher
10:04 AM on 01/11/2012
"with no more tax handouts from the rest of the UK"

Scotland doesn't get tax handouts from the UK, the UK gets tax hand out from it. The Scottish population makes up 8.4% of the UK total, yet we contribute 9.4% of UK tax revenue. That equates to a subsidy to the UK of approx £1000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland. We would be better off out of the union.

"could be no more free prescripti­ons, tuition fees would have to go up, care in the community would be affected"

None of these things will be affected, we pay for them now and after independence we'll have even more resources.

"Independen­ce would cause the scots a lot of broblems"

Which will be easily overcome.

"just an observatio­n if salmond didnt shave for a few days , put an bandage around his head put on a tatty suit and he would look like Rab C Nesbit,"

And if my grandmother had testicles, she'd be my granddad. Your point? Apart from a cheap insult?
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carneliancrystal
Do I believe all the propaganda of course I do
10:56 AM on 01/11/2012
You may see it as a cheap insult but its true
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06:47 AM on 01/11/2012
I really cannot fathom why anyone would want change either side of the border. Salmond reminds me of a certain T. Blair whose ambition was to be President of the E.U. State. Beware of the 'Klondike' effect where gains may soon fade away.
What happens if Salmond dies suddenly as the labour leader did some years ago? Would there be a general election after independence of granted?
They have their own currency already so threats over the Euro are a bit of a distraction. Will the Scots form their own Navy, Army and Airforce or are a few just after something for nothing in the short term?
Take a look at the Welsh. I have visited the assembly and it resembles a large local Council where people stand up and pontificate to no avail. They have made work for signwriters though. Everywhere the signs are in Welsh taking twice as long to read, the delay causing accidents in some cases. English is written underneath mainly for the Welsh who cannot understand their own language. Please don't go Gaelic on us Jocks. English is the language of the Internet.
Best stay with us and not subscribe to the meglamania of one person riding high at the moment.
jon
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BeeJayCeee
I still loathe Thatcher
10:20 AM on 01/11/2012
"I really cannot fathom why anyone would want change either side of the border."

Because Scots would at last, after more than 300 years, get true democracy and self-determination and we would be better off financially.

"Salmond reminds me of a certain T. Blair"

How dare you. Alex Salmond has *nothing* in common with Bliar.

"What happens if Salmond dies suddenly as the labour leader did some years ago? Would there be a general election after independen­ce of granted?"

What does it matter?

"Scots form their own Navy, Army and Airforce"

Yes, with our share of UK forces hardware.

"Please don't go Gaelic on us Jocks."

Sings are already in Gaelic. And I wouldn't advise calling any Scotsman "jock", you might need a visit to the dentist afterwards.

"English is the language of the Internet."

Utterly irrelevant.

"Best stay with us"

Absolutely not. We've experienced more than 300 years of English rule and we've had enough. have you read the comments in these threads? Do you really think we want to continue to be associated with people who hold us in such contempt?

"to the meglamania of one person"

And who would that be?
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carneliancrystal
Do I believe all the propaganda of course I do
10:54 AM on 01/11/2012
Can you change the record try being original for once
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05:58 AM on 01/11/2012
Let the lawyers on both sides sort out the legal position. Too many barrack room lawyers on here who are cherry picking bits of the law instead of looking at the whole picture.
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Vapula
Failure is not an option
05:58 AM on 01/11/2012
Just kick the Scots out of the union and let them get on with it. We don't need them.
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BeeJayCeee
I still loathe Thatcher
10:21 AM on 01/11/2012
"Just kick the Scots out of the union"

You can't, only we get to decide whether we leave or not.

"We don't need them."

You find a huge hole in your budget if we do leave.
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carneliancrystal
Do I believe all the propaganda of course I do
10:57 AM on 01/11/2012
yeah yeah yeah ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
05:37 AM on 01/11/2012
Recent polls have shown that most Scots would vote NO. The SNP have come up with
nothing so far to say how things would be better if they voted yes.
In the last year because of defence cuts and the closure of MOD bases in Scotland
the SNP have done a lot of shouting to keep them open. What will they do if it is a yes
vote and all MOD bases are closed in Scotland. In my local area 4000 people rely on
employment with the MOD. So come on SNP give us some answers to any questions.
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Allyb999
10:04 AM on 01/11/2012
Polls are fickle things and easily manipulated, depends on what questions were asked and the age groups concerned. The last MORI poll that has been used actually asked less than 500 Scottish people.
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BeeJayCeee
I still loathe Thatcher
10:23 AM on 01/11/2012
"Recent polls have shown that most Scots would vote NO."

Lie.

"The SNP have come up with
nothing so far to say how things would be better if they voted yes"

Lie.

"What will they do if it is a yes vote and all MOD bases are closed in Scotland."

We'd open our own.

"So come on SNP give us some answers to any questions."

They have, you've obviously got your eyes and your mind firmly closed.
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carneliancrystal
Do I believe all the propaganda of course I do
11:30 AM on 01/11/2012
And you havent?
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John michael Adams
01:45 AM on 01/11/2012
Well, from a legal standpoint it is true that Scotland Act of 1999 does put the power over referendums on Westminster. Any change to Scotland will have changes in the UK constitution thus it was logical in 1999 for Westminster to have the say on referendums.

Unless snp cites a clause in the UK constitution and Scotland's act that would enable them to dictate to the UK when scotland will hold the referendum then they should show it now without dragging the "oh westminster dictating us what to do" stuff. I just want the legal clauses that allows snp to do referendums on its own.
Without a definitive clause then any scottish "independence" would only be advisory. (this is from a legal standpoint without ensuing romantic emotional bragging.)
02:00 AM on 01/11/2012
More reading for you.

http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts-blog/dr_matt_qvortrup_scotland_does_not_need_permission_to_go_it_alone_1_2047506

Remember this newspaper (cough) is an extreme anti SNP newspaper.
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John michael Adams
02:12 AM on 01/11/2012
But that news article did not cite a definitive clause in the scotland act nor in the UK constitutional laws. the article was just citing Estonia and Serbia and Malta which are not the same case as the home nations of the UK.
International recognition is part of being a new state but before that it has be done democratically guided by written, explicit legal provisions in the laws of the land.