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Peter Kellner

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Scotland: Pro-Salmond, Anti-independence

Posted: 15/10/2012 11:30

Following the agreement between David Cameron and Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister will be able to say he has kept his promise to hold a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014. Given the low regard in which politicians generally are held, keeping such a major promise is no trivial thing.

However, from Salmond's point of view, it is about the only thing going for him. Indeed, were he to be given a truth drug, he might well curse the fact that the SNP won last year's Scottish elections outright, and thus found himself in a position to keep his promise. He would surely have been much happier remaining the leader of a minority government, unable to get his independence legislation through Holyrood. Then he could have railed against the Scottish satraps of the Britain - wide parties for silencing the voice of the Scottish people.

Instead, by winning an outright majority, he has shot his own fox. Rather than shed crocodile tears for his inability to call a referendum, he must now put the issue to the test. As a shrewd and intelligent man - indeed, one of the shrewdest and most intelligent in British politics - he must know that his mission is impossible, that in two years time his country will vote to remain part of the United Kingdom, and that far from being achieved, independence will be deferred for at least a generation.

All YouGov's evidence from the past four years is that independence is a minority passion north of the border. Even as the SNP was surging to victory last year, Scots told us by two-to-one that they wanted to remain within the UK. The SNP won because most Scots thought it had governed their country well, because they liked Salmond, and because they thought the Scottish Labour Party was useless - not because they wanted to sever links with London.

Our latest Britain-wide poll for the Sunday Times suggests that independence remains a very hard sell. The key issue is whether Scotland would be economically stronger on its own. The Scots say no, by two-to-one. To be sure, there are just under 200 Scots in this sample, so the margin for error is large; but our voting figures are in line with other recent Scottish polls (Labour is back in a comfortable lead when people are asked how they would vote in a British general election), so there is no evidence that this particular sample under-represents the kind of people who think independence would be good for Scotland's economy.

Nor does it seem likely that this picture will be radically defaced by the two things Salmond has reportedly achieved in his talks with Cameron.

First, he appears to have got his way on the wording of the referendum question. Salmond wants it to say: 'Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?' Critics have said this is a loaded question. They are right. We pollsters prefer more balanced questions. Instead of offering a Yes/No choice to a single proposition, we would normally offer two alternatives - in the case, independence or staying part of the UK - or, if testing a specific idea, ask people whether they support or oppose it.

However, I don't think the loaded nature of the question will make any difference to the outcome. In a poll, balance matters because we are generally springing on people questions to which they may not have given much thought. In these circumstances, wording can affect the results we obtain. But when people vote in a referendum, they do so having been bombarded with arguments for and against. Voting will be a deliberate act. People will have decided whether they are for or against independence. This means that the precise words on the ballot paper won't matter. Cameron is right to have conceded on the wording. In practice he has conceded nothing that will affect the outcome - and, if the Scots vote to stay in the UK, Salmond won't be able to complain they were asked the 'wrong' question.

Salmond's second 'success' has been to get a green light to lower the voting age for the referendum to 16. However, if he thinks this will make anything more than the tiniest difference, he is uncharacteristically wide of the mark. Even if all 16 and 17-year olds who are entitled to vote are added to the register, this will add 3-4% to the electorate. All the evidence is that the younger the elector the less likely s/he is to vote. And those who do vote do so in roughly the same shares as their parents.

This means that the most Salmond can realistically hope for is that reducing the voting age will increase the number of people who vote by 2%, and that the pro-independence vote among 16 and 17-year olds will be ten percentage points higher than that of the rest of Scotland's voters. The overall effect will be to increase the share of the Yes vote by 0.2 percentage points. And that's an optimistic estimate: changing the voting age might make no difference whatsoever, or even reduce the Yes share fractionally. Again, Cameron has done the unionist cause, no real harm by conceding the point.

In order to win the referendum, Salmond will have to defy history and deploy his great campaigning skills to truly remarkable effect. As I have argued before, when referendums are used to resolve national divisions, the status quo tends to prevail. Normally it requires a consensus for change for a referendum to produce a Yes majority. No such consensus currently exists in Scotland and none seems likely. And on the biggest single influence on attitudes - whether independence would strengthen Scotland's economy - most Scots are fearful of going it alone.

Salmond deserves credit for ensuring that, 314 years after the Act of Union, Scots will finally be asked whether they want to stay joined to the rest of the UK; but he is most unlikely to like the answer.

See the latest Sunday Times results and full details here

 

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Following the agreement between David Cameron and Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister will be able to say he has kept his promise to hold a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014. Given the l...
Following the agreement between David Cameron and Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister will be able to say he has kept his promise to hold a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014. Given the l...
 
 
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10:36 PM on 10/21/2012
Look at today's polling Mr Kellner - a big swing in favour of independence. You can't fool everyone all of the time!
06:48 PM on 10/19/2012
I think salmond should resign now,like Andrew Mitchell,they both treat British people the same way.
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09:25 PM on 10/17/2012
To clarify my position after a number of replies to one of my post seemd to suggest I have an anti-independance stance. I am neither anti or pro, anymore than I am pro or anti European. Unlike so many bloggers and commenters, I have not the confidence or knowledge to make an outright declaration, without any doubts in my mind.

In pointing out that it won't be plain sailing, either way the vote turns out is merely an obvious statement. It requires sensible arguments to be put forward and a lessening of emotional temperature.

What good would it do if bitterness prevailed all round, whatever the result.

To my knowledge a Welshman considers Wales his country and - as I said previously - even parts of Cornwall and NE England have raised such issues of breakaway at appropriate times.

One thing is nigh for certain; the Earth will still orbit the Sun and life will continue - excluding nuclear armageddon.
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09:12 AM on 10/17/2012
Is the Shetland Isles and Orkneys part of Scotland or the U.K. They are the ones sitting on the oil reserves!
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12:24 PM on 10/17/2012
They have been part of Scotland since 1486.

There are no oil fields either on the islands or in the sea area around them.
06:58 PM on 10/19/2012
The Udal law states,the seabed around Shetland's belong's to the Shetland's not to Scotland.
Hence any Northsea oil around Shetland's belong's to the Shetland's.
Was that more snp republican properganda??
11:21 AM on 10/20/2012
Scotland is not a sovereign state,so do not have martime boundaries.(the UK do).
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Mccuaig William
08:17 PM on 10/17/2012
The shetlands and the orkney Islands beleive me are scottish and have no wish to be anything other than scottish
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Rectify
07:47 PM on 10/18/2012
They are Scottish but they are not Scottish nationlists they are Scottish Unionists & they are very proud of their Viking ancestry
07:03 PM on 10/19/2012
Dream on,they dont want to be part of salmond's dictatorial republic.
04:20 PM on 10/16/2012
I had to stop reading this article as its pretty much a party political broadcast on behalf of the Southern parties and whatever Tory and labour supporters remain North of the border. Having lived and worked for ten years in Scotland I can tell you for nothing and without a "poll" that the Scottish people I've spent time among are all in favour of independence, and that conclusion comes from every branch of Scottish society from the very wealthy to the poor, all of whom throughout the country I photographed at social events. I'm becoming increasingly worried about the state these islands are really in when pollsters like this alongside our political parties are seemingly terrified the outcome of this referendum will be against their wishes so there is something very worrying we're not being told, this is no longer about keeping the UK as one imo and knowing what I've dug up about our political class I'm convinced we're being deceived for other reasons altogether.
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Rectify
07:54 PM on 10/18/2012
I have lived in Scotland all my life not just 10 years & I can assure you Scotland is loyal to the Union & is fundementally a Labour country
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jimbraid1
01:42 PM on 10/16/2012
I am a Scot and I will be voting Yes in the referendum. Not because I am anti English, I am anti no-one in fact, I just feel that there is no reason why we cant go it alone same as other independent countries with a similar or even smaller population than Scotland. Scotland does not have to prove its past achievements. The average Scot was not given a choice when the Union was formed 300 plus years ago, in 2014 they will be given a choice, lets hope they get off their arses and vote. If its a No vote I for one will not lose any sleep, there will no doubt be other opportunities.
07:09 PM on 10/19/2012
Those smaller nation's with the same size population as Scotland that have made a go of it,are you talking about Iceland and Ireland.
The first owing billion's to Britain,the second bailed out to the tune of billion's by Britain.
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jimbraid1
11:59 PM on 10/19/2012
No, I am talking about Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Finland, Switzerland, Luxembourg, New Zealand, and many others. Their citizens are no smarter than the Scots.
11:50 PM on 10/15/2012
I more than accept the fact that there is only a minority in Scotland who seek independance. There are people in Cornwall and North-East England who also talk such language. I also concede that that verbal and written refutation should be more narrowly directed toward Scottish politicians more concerned with their career than their country. This is ever more prevalent across the globe, especially among the big players.

One major worry is, because of the grandstand approach and communications technology available to the political animal, coupled with how easily the masses (including me) can be swayed under broadcast messages hammered into one's brain (think Goebbels), then impulsive swings one way or the other can take on tsunami proportions.

Rhetoric overrides reason and whimsicality replaces reason more often, these days.

Still, Que Sara Sara! Most Scots I've rubbed shoulders with are truly canny.
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Mccuaig William
08:21 PM on 10/17/2012
everyone I know from various walks of life are all for Independence the labour MP neil Bibby ran a poll asking who would vote for independence 92% in favour of independence so he removed it not before it was seen and recorded
07:16 PM on 10/19/2012
What did the latest poll tell you? less than 25% support independence now,that figure has been dropping from a height of over 40% since salmond opened his mouth and launched the yes campaign.
06:41 PM on 10/30/2012
why is it anyone who knows a Scot always calls them "canny" you'd think we were obedient sheepdogs,
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SGillLondonUK
SCOTLAND IS NOT ENGLISH PROPERTY
11:39 PM on 10/15/2012
Who gets to keep the Nuclear weapons?
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12:45 AM on 10/16/2012
The UK.

The UK can't pass any on as it is a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Besides, the SNP government wants to become a nuclear-free zone.
10:08 AM on 10/16/2012
I don't think that argument about the NPT is necessarily correct. When a country splits up, there is always a discussion about which (if any) of the new states should be considered the successor of the old one, and how the old state's obligations and privileges should be divided between the new ones. There isn't really a lot of consensus on how this should work in general: there is a fairly ambiguous Vienna Convention on Succession of States in Respect of Treaties, but only a minority of countries (not including the UK) have signed it. Of course, it is very likely that Westminster and Holyrood would agree that the UK should keep all nuclear weapons, and that Scotland would join the NPT, so this isn't really much of a problem (but things like EU membership and debts might well be).
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SGillLondonUK
SCOTLAND IS NOT ENGLISH PROPERTY
04:58 PM on 10/16/2012
They also want to be a zero carbon state, whilst at the same time want to sell oil from the north sea
09:58 PM on 10/15/2012
To put forward a blunt question: should Scotland have more preferential terms than Wales or Northern Ireland?

I don't think that those north of the border realise there is growing animosity south of it. Passions are being raised that can do neither country any good. The immense complexities that will result from a yes vote is bound to have an impact across the UK - and not necessarily all good. In fact, most likely all negative.

In conclusion, 'Look Before You Leap'.
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Rectify
11:25 PM on 10/15/2012
You talk about the people North of the border as if they are all nationalists when in reality at the moment according to the opinion polls the nationalists only have the support of 25% of the Scottish people. Although I do agree with you that the anti British rhetoric of the nationalists is causing resentment in other parts of the UK however my point is that animosity to which you refer should be directed at the people who are soley responsible for it & that is the SNP & not at all the people of Scotland who remain proud to be British & part of the UK
03:31 PM on 10/18/2012
Yeh even in northern Ireland rectify.
Erm you've been reading to many right wing opinion polls rectify.
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Mccuaig William
07:25 PM on 10/17/2012
Iv'e never heard a more arrogant post should scotland have more powers than Wales or Northern Ireland your'e having a laugh Scotland is not a county england but a sovereign nation in it's own right and who do you think should decide if scotland should get more money
I don't care if passions are being raised in england most scots don't it's none of your business what scotland decides keep your nose out of scotlands business the sooner we seperate from the UK the better then you can go and sponge of some other poor country
07:36 PM on 10/19/2012
This Island belong's to us all,why do you snp republican's have to be so spiteful ?
If England had an accident with a nuclear bomb,this island is so small it would effect every corner of it.
The rest of the UK take more export's of you than any other country,over a million Scot's live in England alone,50% of the Scottish nation has got some family member living in south of the border.
As for sponging check your capital spending against the rest of the UK,and how much defict has accured in Scotland over the last 5 year's.
With less than 25% wanting independence,power hungery salmond should have spent his time getting Scotland full control of it's taxes and revenue,but staying as two seperate countries in the most successful Union in modern history.
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Pietro Sommavilla
09:50 PM on 10/15/2012
"As I have argued before, when referendums are used to resolve national divisions, the status quo tends to prevail."

A similar event took place in Canada (1995 Quebec referendum)

The Québécois people wished to secede from Canada and become an independent state,
but their request did not succeed by a narrow margin
(49.42% "Yes" -- 50.58% "No).

PS
I remember reading about this event years ago:
"Québécois are scared of losing "Canadians" government benefits"
07:57 PM on 10/15/2012
Other than looking after certain politictian's in Scotland.
What guarantee's does the working class families in Scotland have they will be better off breaking away from the Union??
What guarantee's does the unemployed,the disabled,the pensioner's have?
What guarantee's are there it wont cost the Scottish public,higher taxes,cut back in services,loss of job's etc ?
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12:47 AM on 10/16/2012
Fred, the answers to all these questions (and many more) will be made clear by the Dear Leader once he gets around to it. Maybe.
05:01 PM on 10/16/2012
Yes, your comment say's a lot about the Hi-Leader.
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Mark B Robertson
09:19 AM on 10/16/2012
In answer to these questions what do you think previous Tory and Labour governments have done to Scotland? Do you think they have benefited us in some way? There are no guarentees, whether we become independent or remain as part of the UK. We already see what being part of the UK is doing to Scotland, no matter how we try with the limited devolved powers that we have to minimise these effects. This referendum will give us all the chance to see all the arguments for and against, and for Scots to make up our minds at least for a generation. This chance will not come again in your lifetime, so think about it very carefully, you are deciding the futures of yourself and many generations to come. Vote in full knowledge, and in good conscience, of the consequences, and wonder whether future generations will curse your decision.
05:10 PM on 10/16/2012
Where are the full honest fact's coming from?
salmond wont even devulge what fact's he has been given on the EU.
The Labour party gave the Scottish people the right to have their own parliment,and to let little and power hungery people like salmond to come along,to try and break up the Union.
06:50 PM on 10/15/2012
A large chunk of the 2/3 of Scots who said last year they wanted to stay in Britain, wanted to do so with extended powers for the Scottish Executive (hence the "2nd question" argument.) I don't think it's valid to automatically assume that those people are more likely to vote no than yes if their preferred option isn't there, especially with the current policies coming out of Westminster.
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hearthammer
If left is right and right is wrong, decide!
04:39 PM on 10/16/2012
The "Scottish Executive?" The civil service arm of the government?

Why do the people of Scotland want more powers for civil servants?
03:35 PM on 10/18/2012
pickwicklet, Deduct 1 point as I marked your comment favourite by mistake.
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jfjoubert
Le pire n'est pas toujours certain.
05:51 PM on 10/15/2012
"that in two years time his country will vote to remain part of the United Kingdom, and that far from being achieved, independence will be deferred for at least a generation."

In my opinion...
1. In Québec in 95 the Yes side was at 43% before the 95 referendum and was lost (by 1%) because of massive spending during the campaign (10 to 1) most of it illegal channelled through Crown Corporations and such. Scotland I understand has massive cash reserves for the referendum and has not even really started getting ready for the actual campaign. Advantage Yes side (IMO) especially that there is likely going to be a spike in support during the campaign. Unionists should perhaps think of how they could offer a really interesting "DEVO-MAX" package to the Scots.
2. As for the "next generation" argument... PQ Pauline Marois, has just been elected first women PM in Québec. Generations are not what they used to be.
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12:51 AM on 10/16/2012
"...Scotland I understand has massive cash reserves for the referendum and has not even really started getting ready for the actual campaign. ..."

Err .. no.

In fact the SNP government is doing its best to reduce the amount of money that can be spent by various bodies on referendum campaigning'.
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jfjoubert
Le pire n'est pas toujours certain.
02:52 PM on 10/16/2012
Well it does have a war chest and it is massive... but you are right compared to what those running the union can find...
taxing the Welsh to keep the Scots in the union... lovely!
03:26 PM on 10/15/2012
"Given the low regard in which politicians generally are held,"

Please don't try that old trick of trying to liken the SNP with your dodgy mob at Westminster.

"All YouGov's evidence from the past four years is that independence is a minority passion north of the border"

Erm...was your poll correct on the Holyrood elections in 2011?

You know as well as I do Peter that polls can be made to say what you want them to say and considering Alistair Darling commissioned a poll this year through 'yougov' it would come as no suprise that a dodgy 'no' poll was recorded.
Still believe in Thatcherism Peter? No suprise there either eh.
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MelRoy
I think, therefore...here I am
04:17 PM on 10/15/2012
Peter Kellner has been a well-regarded pollster for as long as I can remember. He is authoritative, because this is what he does for a living.

Both you and I have our opinions about politics, and the wisdom (or non) of Scottish independence, but you are accusing a professional pollster of using dodgy methodology to reach a certain conclusion.

There is no possible gain in manipulating polls or mischaracterising the results for a professional pollster. Think about it.
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04:43 PM on 10/15/2012
This is day one of two years of mud-slinging. A decent debate would be good but instead we'll get low-grade comments like the one you have rightly responded to.
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Walter Duff
Sepo meliora
11:48 PM on 10/15/2012
Of course there is something to gain from manipulation,that's what manipulators do. They seek to gain an advantage by influencing the future thinking process of a given group by auto suggestion in much the same way as professional advertisers do. To presume that there is no agenda, on any side of a political matter such as the break up of the United Kingdom - is naive.

Make no mistake about the tenacity of the Scots, regardless of polls, pundits, labourite has beens, tory minority, etc, etc, it is in the nature of Scots to do precisely what no one else wants them to do. Or, expects. Scotland v England, see: Bannockburn 1314. Lest we forget, Scots went to kiss the a@s of english king that day.
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jfjoubert
Le pire n'est pas toujours certain.
05:55 PM on 10/15/2012
Polls for independence are traditionally volatile. Perhaps that for a lot of people, independence is something they want deep inside but always feel they cannot have. When numbers go up, there tends to be an amplification effect.